Changes to Devils and Demons

[Klaus]

Over the years TSR released several supplements/campaign settings with wildly different cosmological assumptions, including Deities & Demigods/Legends & Lore, Lankhmar, and Mystara... all this before they got around to making MotP.

I have the 1e Legends & Lore, and it lists the specific Great Wheel planes where the deities reside.

 

[Aloïsius]

Or actually read Moorcock, where most of the alignment divisions were taken from. In a magical world where Law and Chaos are real sources of power, the alignments actually take on a meaning.

And I did not like Moorcock books... Partly because of the Law-Chaos thing.

 

[Merlion]

I didn't read all of the thread, but these are my thoughts.

I adore the idea of Devils as fallen angels, and used a similar sort of aproach in the last game I ran with fiends for all fiends. I believe evil is a choice, and therefore beings that are inherently evil from their beginings rub me the wrong way. I wish they'd do the same with Demons (or just merge the two) but this seems unlikely.

As for the history changes...I wouldnt be likely to use any of the versions of the history that are printed anyway so it doesnt much matter to me.

The D&D "Erinyes" were already pretty unlike the mythical ones, since in the myths there were only three and they were not "fiends" of any kind. Whereas, the D&D Succubus fits its origins pretty nicely...so just having the Succubus seems fine to me.


I also agree that the distinction between Devils and Demons has always been a bit hazy/silly (especially for those of us who dont give a fig about "law" and "chaos"), and while I would probably have solved that by simply removing any distinction at all, actually making them distinct works too.

 

[hong]

Well, they did just invalidate two of their best books, the Fiendish Codices. As someone who enjoys the history of D&D itself, this just strikes me as odd. Looks like poor Malcanthet and Castle Maure are going to have their stories rocked.

But if you played any published setting, then they would have been invalidated _anyway_. Neither FR nor Eberron nor any third-party setting uses the Great Wheel.

 

[hong]

I fail to see why this should be better.
There is some reason why you/your character should be inherently able to take apart a demon from a devil at first sight (without the right skills)?

Because they should be more than just generic EVIL PLANAR GUYS who happen to be in a war against each other. Yeah, yeah, there's three metric tons of earlier edition splats which go into history, culture, organisation, personalities and shoe size detailing just how demons and devils are different. But then your character shouldn't know that stuff either, right?

I can see that if you were confronted by some misshapen, multilimbed monstrosity with claws and fangs and drooling spittle from its gigantic maw, you might not know which particular demon it was. But the first instinctive thought for most people on seeing something like that would be "it's a demon" and that's something which is quite reasonable. There's no reason, whether from an ingame or out-of-game PoV, to start playing games like "OTOH, it could be a devil...".

The greatest point of difference, really, between demons and devils as they stand right now is that one side is CE and the other LE. Since it appears that they're going to be deemphasising the role of alignment, that no longer becomes sufficient. So there's a need to find other ways to make them mechanically and thematically distinct from each other.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Because they should be more than just generic EVIL PLANAR GUYS who happen to be in a war against each other. Yeah, yeah, there's three metric tons of earlier edition splats which go into history, culture, organisation, personalities and shoe size detailing just how demons and devils are different. But then your character shouldn't know that stuff either, right?

I can see that if you were confronted by some misshapen, multilimbed monstrosity with claws and fangs and drooling spittle from its gigantic maw, you might not know which particular demon it was. But the first instinctive thought for most people on seeing something like that would be "it's a demon" and that's something which is quite reasonable. There's no reason, whether from an ingame or out-of-game PoV, to start playing games like "OTOH, it could be a devil...".

The greatest point of difference, really, between demons and devils as they stand right now is that one side is CE and the other LE. Since it appears that they're going to be deemphasising the role of alignment, that no longer becomes sufficient. So there's a need to find other ways to make them mechanically and thematically distinct from each other.

I think it would actually be refreshing if these mechanical and thematic differences allowed them to abandon the alignment distinction altogether, allowing for NE and CE devils, and NE and LE demons.

 

[Merlion]

I think it would actually be refreshing if these mechanical and thematic differences allowed them to abandon the alignment distinction altogether, allowing for NE and CE devils, and NE and LE demons.

I agree. I, in game, have generally used "Demon", "Devil" and "Fiend" all totally interchangebly.

Of course I also studiously ignore "Law" and "Chaos".

 

[Dacileva]

Well, they did just invalidate two of their best books, the Fiendish Codices. As someone who enjoys the history of D&D itself, this just strikes me as odd. Looks like poor Malcanthet and Castle Maure are going to have their stories rocked.

If you plan to use the Great Wheel, the books are fine.

If you don't, they weren't very useful anyway (such as for an FR or Eberron game).

 

[Glyfair]

I have the 1e Legends & Lore, and it lists the specific Great Wheel planes where the deities reside.

Which I will note uses different planes than Planescape uses (in some places). In fact, I believe the visual prior to the MotP was a great "rectangle." I admit, it didn't qualify as "wildly different."

The planes have evolved and changed through the years. Several planes were added over the year (Concordant Opposition, Plane of Shadow). Planes have appeared and disappeared again (the para-elemental & quasi-elemental planes).

The planes haven't exactly been stable as "canon."

 

[Kobold Avenger]

While I'm alright with the structure of the planes flexible, what I don't like is completely disregarding past material. And I feel that they may be disregarding Fiendish Codex I, Fiendish Codex II and all the Demonomicon articles in Dragon, which were really really good.

The new changes they're proposing right now, is just schlock in comparison to all that material...

Sure I don't mind the Devil origin story as it isn't much different from FCII and the Ice Devil/Gelugon thing as it's adding something. But I despise the whole Succubus matter as it currently is.

And as one of the hornets from the nest, I'm going to keep on stinging...

Whoever's writing writing stuff on the "Exemplar" outsiders should pay close attention to the stuff written in those books instead.