Changing implements

[kenmarable]

Just getting started on 4e and I have a question:

Are there any balance issues I should be concerned about with allowing a class to use a different implement?

The particular case in question is a cleric using a staff rather than a holy symbol. Basically the player likes some of the invoker flavor (direct vessel of deific power rather than a priest dedicated to a deity) but is considering the cleric actual class.

Anything I should be worried about here? For the most part, it seems an implement is an implement (except with wizards and their extra abilities). About the worst I can think of is having your implement and weapon being the same, you save some money/treasure. But that's not too crazy and is manageable.

But, like I said, I'm just getting started with 4e and am still plowing through the books, but from what I can tell, I don't think there would be anything broken about letting a cleric use a staff in place of a holy symbol, right? No weird synergies with a particular magic staff or anything, right?

In general, other than:
A) being able to save money by combining weapon and implement in some cases, and
B) wizard's arcane implement mastery
an implement is an implement, and it's just a matter of class flavor and specific magic items, correct?

 

[Black Knight Irios]

How about the following option:

Your player can have any holy symbol enchantment on a staff but no staff enchantments.

What he gains: The flavor of waving a staff when casting.
Trade off: Staffs need at least one free hand (iirc custserv said two, because it is a two handed weapon).

I see no way of abusing that.


Another option:
He should get himself a cool looking staff and just wave it around as if he was using it for casting (maybe his character actually beliefs that...).

 

[DracoSuave]

There's definately a difference in terms of what staffs do as opposed to what holy symbols do. A cursory glance through the items list will show this is the case.

As well, holy symbols don't need to be wielded, a staff does. There are mechanical differences that one should address. Holy symbols can be used by a character with a weapon and a shield (paladins, especially, as well as some cleric builds) but a staff cannot.

 

[kenmarable]

There's definately a difference in terms of what staffs do as opposed to what holy symbols do. A cursory glance through the items list will show this is the case.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. The mechanical differences I am aware of to consider are:
- holy symbols need only be worn, not wielded
- staffs also function as a weapon (so save cash by combining magic implement and magic weapon)
- staffs require 2 hands if you want to use them as a weapon
- wizards arcane implement mastery varies by implement

Other than that, all implements are identical*, right?

* Putting aside enchantments, of course. So a symbol of hope and a staff of power and a wand of X are all different. But those are add-ons. The base implements as implements are identical.

As well, holy symbols don't need to be wielded, a staff does. There are mechanical differences that one should address. Holy symbols can be used by a character with a weapon and a shield (paladins, especially, as well as some cleric builds) but a staff cannot.

But the sum of that is really just trading off a weapon & shield for a 2-handed weapon, and the implement has no real bearing. In both cases both weapon and implement are in effect. And I sure hope 4e is flexible enough to allow paladins and clerics to use 2-handed weapons instead of a weapon and shield.

How about the following option:

Your player can have any holy symbol enchantment on a staff but no staff enchantments.

What he gains: The flavor of waving a staff when casting.
Trade off: Staffs need at least one free hand (iirc custserv said two, because it is a two handed weapon).

I see no way of abusing that.

Some good ideas, I like those. Hadn't really considered applying holy symbol enchantments instead of staff enchantments.

I haven't delved deep enough to see if any particular staff enchantments have odd synergies with any particular cleric powers, but this would address that. The corner case/odd synergy issue is on the one hand not a big concern for me since my players aren't usually abusive of those, but on the other hand since I don't know all the nuances yet I'm least able to make an informed opinion on.

Another option:
He should get himself a cool looking staff and just wave it around as if he was using it for casting (maybe his character actually beliefs that...).

I think the player definitely believes that! He's kinda hung up on the staff-wielding thing at the moment. Considered for a bit going with a staffmage instead of a swordmage. Liked the image of an arcane warrior attacking with a staff crackling with energy.

 

[DracoSuave]

But the sum of that is really just trading off a weapon & shield for a 2-handed weapon, and the implement has no real bearing. In both cases both weapon and implement are in effect. And I sure hope 4e is flexible enough to allow paladins and clerics to use 2-handed weapons instead of a weapon and shield.

Heck, just have him take the feat that turns the staff from a sucktastic sub-par weapon to a double weapon with defensive, and you'll actually find this concept isn't a bad idea.

Hmmmmm.....

 

[nittanytbone]

I'd at least make him spend a feat to use staves. Spending a feat to get "staff proficiency" is less potent than the Wizard MC feat and I'm willing to bet that the forthcoming Invoker MC feat will let you use staves anyways with a cleric-friendly required attribute.