[Character Creation] Helpful Symmetry

[jaer]

Hopefully something awesome. I have no doubt that they've sat around and worked this one out, actually. I may not end up liking 4E, but I find it hard to believe that they'll screw up something this basic.

That said, look at Batman & Captain America. They manage to get along okay. So, I expect a lot of really screaming awesome human-only racial abilities, which essentially amount to extra win and script immunity. Humans never give up, and find ways to accomplish the impossible. That's more or less what they say about them in R&C, and I expect that their mechanics are going to reflect that.

I would rather see them have some sweet racial abilitis and not have any stat adjustments then for humans to have free-floating stat adjustments. That just does not sit well with me.

 

[jaer]

I'd be pretty unsurprised if Tieflings were STR and CHA instead of DEX and CHA, or even CON and CHA. I would be very surprised if Tieflings and Halflings (linglinglingdingaling!) both had the same stat modifiers.

If Dragonblooded have CHA bonuses as well, I think we'll be seeing too many races with CHA bonuses, so I think INT or WIS makes a little more sense for them.

I agree, it does seem like a lot of Charisma, but what do we know, or think we know, about the classes and their one, primary stat? The one most of their powers are tied to?

Rogues - Dex.
Rangers - Dex.
Wizards - Int.
Fighters - Str.
Clerics - Wis.
Warlocks - Cha.
Paladins - Cha.
Warlord....Cha? Str? Being a leader, I would think Cha. The marshal sure was.

Not to say a Warlord or a Paladin doesn't want Str, nor does a Fighter or Ranger not want Con, but when looking at that one Prime score, charisma is suddenly becoming a pretty well used stat, so it would not surprise me if we seem more races using it.

After all, through 2e and except for a couple classes in 3e, charisma has been the throw-away stat. Only Sorcs really needed, though paladins were helped a good chunk by it as well. It would be nice to see a marshal character (warlord) need Cha.

I don't see Warlord on the halflings list of classes they are good at (thank goodness!); I am guessing it is on the Half-elf list (it has been said they are natural leaders). Would not surprise me if it was a Dragonborn.

I'd like to see some races with bonuses to physical only or mental only. Eladrin with a +2 int, +2 wis could make sense. Tiefling being Int and Cha would also make sense. This would give these races a certain sense of being primarily magical and caster-focuses.

 

[WyzardWhately]

I agree, it does seem like a lot of Charisma, but what do we know, or think we know, about the classes and their one, primary stat? The one most of their powers are tied to?

Rogues - Dex.
Rangers - Dex.
Wizards - Int.
Fighters - Str.
Clerics - Wis.
Warlocks - Cha.
Paladins - Cha.
Warlord....Cha? Str? Being a leader, I would think Cha. The marshal sure was.

Not to say a Warlord or a Paladin doesn't want Str, nor does a Fighter or Ranger not want Con, but when looking at that one Prime score, charisma is suddenly becoming a pretty well used stat, so it would not surprise me if we seem more races using it.

After all, through 2e and except for a couple classes in 3e, charisma has been the throw-away stat. Only Sorcs really needed, though paladins were helped a good chunk by it as well. It would be nice to see a marshal character (warlord) need Cha.

I don't see Warlord on the halflings list of classes they are good at (thank goodness!); I am guessing it is on the Half-elf list (it has been said they are natural leaders). Would not surprise me if it was a Dragonborn.

I'd like to see some races with bonuses to physical only or mental only. Eladrin with a +2 int, +2 wis could make sense. Tiefling being Int and Cha would also make sense. This would give these races a certain sense of being primarily magical and caster-focuses.

I'd like to see a fair number of off-stat power options. So, for example, a fighter power that uses precise timing that's based of wisdom, or based on fooling an opponent and based on charisma. Any number of analogous examples could be generated. I think it gives more room for character generation, and reduces the dumpiness of dump stats.

Just a thought.

 

[jaer]

I'd like to see a fair number of off-stat power options. So, for example, a fighter power that uses precise timing that's based of wisdom, or based on fooling an opponent and based on charisma. Any number of analogous examples could be generated. I think it gives more room for character generation, and reduces the dumpiness of dump stats.

Just a thought.

I like these for feats. PA need Str; Combat Expetise needed Int; the Combat Focus feat line (PH2) uses Wis.

I'm pretty sure WotC said somewhere that they were removing the NEED for classes to have lots of good stats (3e, paladin needed wisdom for spells, str for hit and damage, cha for smites and saves, con for the hp to survive combat, hopefully some small dex to not drop the AC to low and some Int so he could know something!).

I wouldn't really want to see a fighter power that used Wisdom to hit instead of strength, because given the choice between a wisdom based power and a str based one, I would pick the str, because as a fighter, I would be likely to focusing all of my efforts on increasing my strength stat, no wisdom (which the cleric will be doing).

Having the option to pick a feat that allows me to do something cool cause I am playing a high-wisdom character (feat could be good for any meele combatant with decent wisdom) would have a better feel to me. Have class abilites based around the class stat; pick other things like feats to flesh out your character idea and to fit that unique build.

 

[WyzardWhately]

I wouldn't really want to see a fighter power that used Wisdom to hit instead of strength, because given the choice between a wisdom based power and a str based one, I would pick the str, because as a fighter, I would be likely to focusing all of my efforts on increasing my strength stat, no wisdom (which the cleric will be doing).

Having the option to pick a feat that allows me to do something cool cause I am playing a high-wisdom character (feat could be good for any meele combatant with decent wisdom) would have a better feel to me. Have class abilites based around the class stat; pick other things like feats to flesh out your character idea and to fit that unique build.

My understanding of the current design philosophy is that feats tend to give smaller, persistent bonuses, while powers are what give you new options and special attacks. I don't know any more about the implementation of that than anyone else (Which side does Trip come down on? If anyone can try to trip at the cost of an Opportunity Attack, but someone who spends a pick on Improved Trip doesn't provoke, does that make Improved Trip a Feat or a Power? No Idea. I'm guessing a power, since Tornado Strike is, but it's just a guess.)

So, maybe.

 

[Xethreau]

I think that humans will have selectable bonuses: +2 to a physical ability, and +2 to a mental ability (assuming that their "human resilience" power has to do with the self healing ability.) As such, humans, as per tradition, will be excellent at all classes, with focus on the individual.

 

[Voss]

Actually based on the adeptly wyverning goldly feat and the paladin smites, it looks like classes will rely on two attributes, even if its a primary/secondary setup.
So, I think classes will be something like-

Fighter Str/Con
Paladin Cha/Wis
Rogue Dex/Int
Ranger Dex/Wis
Warlock Cha?/Int?Con?
Warlord Cha/Str
Cleric Wis/Cha?
Wizard Int/Wis (from that feat) maybe somthing else?

but maybe the 'secondary' will vary.

As far as races, unless there is something in R&C thats contradictory-
Dragonborn Str/?Wis?
Dwarf Con/Str?wis?
Eladrin Dex/Int
Elf Dex/Wis
Half-elf Cha/any? (from being part human?)
Halfling Dex/Cha
Human any two? it would suck if humans didn't get anything. Even if the racial abilities are good, it still a mechanical inferiority problem.
Tiefling Int/something that isn't Dex, just for some sort of racial/stat balance.

Maybe they'll do physical and mental, just for the symmetry, but I'm unsure. They often don't think they way I do.

 

[The Little Raven]

To be honest, if elves and halflings aren't getting a strength penalty, humans, dwarves and dragonborn better get a bonus.

Why would elves have a Strength penalty? Only one or two subraces of elf ever received such a penalty, and they received other things in lieu or it... but never the core PHB elf.

 

[devoblue]

Given that humans are one of the larger races, I'd expect them to get a Strength bonus. It would be fair to assume humans are stronger than the relatively slender elves. The extra skill points that humans have in 3e is for most classes exactly the same as them getting an Intelligence bonus.

What evidence to we have that racial ability modifiers will be multiples of 2? 1e and 2e had bonuses that were usually +1/-1. What evidence do we have that the ability bonuses will be the same as the 3e scale? Prior to 3e every ability had a different scale, and the bonuses didn't increase as quickly.

 

[Captain Eru]

Why would elves have a Strength penalty? Only one or two subraces of elf ever received such a penalty, and they received other things in lieu or it... but never the core PHB elf.

I think that Gort was referencing perception more than the actual game mechanics, at least that’s my view. While I agree that few elves have ever been given strength penalties, the perception is that, as far as Third Edition is concerned, ranging from strongest to weakest, the progression goes half-orc, dwarf, human, half-elf, elf, gnome, and halfling. While players may not play elves as dainty, that is the perception a lot of players have to the elf concept. At least being physically “weaker” than half-orcs, dwarves, and humans are.