Charging, Cleave, Spring attack and AoO...

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

'tastes bad with pie'

Classic!

 

[Infiniti2000]

No, just unfair:

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=1899225&postcount=244

It can be unbalanced, but only if abused by players and DM's, but that's hardly unique to Cleave and AoO's, and not the main reason for me to disallow Cleaving of AoO's. I think the mechanic goes against the spirit of the game.

Okay, fair enough, pun intended. I can't argue with your opinion on it. Fwiw, I think not allowing it is unjust to the character with cleave and great cleave.

 

[Thanee]

One could say exactly the same thing to people who feel that cleaving off of an aoo is 'unfair' or 'doesnt make sense' ...

Of course, it's just a viewpoint like any other, well... two.

... or 'tastes bad with pie'.

Never tried it.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I think not allowing it is unjust to the character with cleave and great cleave.

Why is that? Because it's allowed in the rules?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

On a large scale, it may not be mechanically sound, but can easily be justified to make sense though.

In an abstract system anything can be justified to make sense...or not make sense. It is only a question of how much effort you are willing to put into the rationalization.

Mechanically speaking it is six or one, half dozen of the other.

My personal opinion is that AoO+Cleave does not fit well within the overall context of D&D combat.

In D&D, an AoO is about the biggest tactical penalty we normally see imposed, and it is reserved for the most blantantly reckless actions.

Given that D&D imposes minscule penalties for being simultaneously attacked from all directions, it feels wrong to me to inject this large penalty based on what happened to some other combatant who may be "nearby" by some arbitrary definition of near.

Let's put this in context in typical situations a PC faces. On one hand being totally surrounded is a tiny little +2 Flanking bonus to your enemies' attack. That is a pretty small inconvenience unless you are being swarmed by Rogues. On the other hand, someone 15' feet attempts to run away and your PC takes an AoO because of that.

That looks out of whack to me.

 

[DM-Rocco]

1. You can't Fight Defensively or use CE on a charge. Both require you to take the attack or full attack action. Charge is a separate full-round action.

2. Both CE and FD are options you may exercise when you take the attack or full-attack action. Accordingly, their bonuses / penalties do not come into play until you take that action. In your example, this means that it would take effect just before you start to attack, but after you complete your move.

What if you just took a normal movement to engage in an opponent and draw an AoO from someone before you can attack, but you play on, and annouce, that you are fighting defensively and pumping 5 into combat expertise?

Pretty sure I know what you are going to say, but say it anyway

 

[Thanee]

The benefit of Combat Expertise applies as soon as you use the attack action, which is after the movement in your example.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Infiniti2000]

Why is that? Because it's allowed in the rules?

That is only part of the reason, but certainly not justification in itself. I'm not a slave to the rules if that's your meaning. I think it's unjust because as I think everyone here agrees (extreme for one extreme setup) neither cleave nor great cleave are broken when allowing it on an AoO. I also think that it makes thematic sense (in a flavor description), no matter how you describe cleave functioning. The 'follow-through' example means that you can follow-through with a cleave to another opponent. There's no restriction for that and nothing you've said above being able to attack your opponent convinces me that you thought it through, particularly in light of the charge example. All the explanations to the contrary of my opinion are vague and say things like "doesn't fit within D&D." They are totally unconvincing and quite honestly inconsistent.

 

[Darth Malakh]

a little off topic:

ever thought about (great) cleave and "true strike"?

...and has anyone ever made use of superior cleave or trail of blood?

Malakh

 

[DM-Rocco]

The benefit of Combat Expertise applies as soon as you use the attack action, which is after the movement in your example.

Bye
Thanee

What if I give them the evil eye before I move