Charging

[irdeggman]

I am not in need of edification on the concept of initiative, though I thank you for taking the trouble to type that up. Rather, I have a memory of a passage in the DMG stating that the concept of initiative is not absolute with regard to the simultaneity of actions (or lack thereof) and that therefore certain actions that mechanically occur later may occur at the same time.

But then again the DMG is subserviant to the PHB when it comes down to questions of runnng combat.

Because of the possibility of actions not actually happening in the order described by initiative (which is, as you stated, a simplification), simultaneity is available as a possible explanation for extending the period of time during which one is considered "charging."

Using this basis of simultaneity, an AoO can never happen since everything happens at the same time (or roughly so). So a character can't step up and attack someone else since that target may not be there at the time. I'm talking about the 5 ft step and full attack versus a move and cast a spell.

The only time you generate an AoO when casting a spell is hen actually casting it - not the entire round (which is another extrapolation of the continutiy issue).

 

[Hypersmurf]

The only time you generate an AoO when casting a spell is hen actually casting it...

More restrictive than that, in fact - The only time you generate an AoO when casting a spell is when you begin casting it.

Let's say you're casting Lesser Restoration, with its three round casting time. If someone threatens you when you begin casting, you provoke an AoO. If they move up to you any time over the next three rounds, you're still casting, but no AoO is provoked.

-Hyp.

 

[Cobblestone]

Follow Up Question

If setting a spear agianst a charge is a form of readying an attack, and I ready a longspear against a charge, do I get two attacks against the charger (one of the readied action, and one for the attack of opportunity provoked when he moves from 10 feet to 5 feet away) before he can attack me?

Thanks,

C-stone

 

[Elephant]

If setting a spear agianst a charge is a form of readying an attack, and I ready a longspear against a charge, do I get two attacks against the charger (one of the readied action, and one for the attack of opportunity provoked when he moves from 10 feet to 5 feet away) before he can attack me?

Thanks,

C-stone

Yes, I think: Enemy charges you, then you take your readied attack, then they step out of a threatened square to 'finish' their charge, and you get an AoO before they finally attack you.

HOWEVER, their charge may be stopped in its tracks by your readied attack, in which case the AoO wouldn't happen. I'm not sure whether that's an actual rule or someone's houserule, though, and I don't have time to look it up atm

I'm sure someone like Hyp could confirm that, though!

 

[MarkB]

Yes, I think: Enemy charges you, then you take your readied attack, then they step out of a threatened square to 'finish' their charge, and you get an AoO before they finally attack you.

HOWEVER, their charge may be stopped in its tracks by your readied attack, in which case the AoO wouldn't happen. I'm not sure whether that's an actual rule or someone's houserule, though, and I don't have time to look it up atm

I'm sure someone like Hyp could confirm that, though!

Therein lies another potential debate. The text for Ready states:

Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

Now, how literally must we take that bolded section? If taken absolutely literally, the interrupted character has no choice - having committed to an action, he must complete it after the interruption if he is capable of doing so. In this case, he must plough through your threatened area, provoking another attack from the longspear that just skewered him, then go ahead and make his attack if he is still standing.

If we interpret the phrase a little more leniently - as stating that the interrupted character may continue his action if he so chooses - then he has a choice whether to continue his charge, or stay where he is to avoid taking the AoO. Either way, he's attempted the Charge full-round action and can take no more actions that round, even if he covered less than a single move action's distance. (Whether he retains the -2 to AC is another question).

I tend to think the more lenient interpretation is the correct one.

 

[Sigurd]

Readied weapons:


You have 3 choices:

1) All weapons can be readied against a charge, in which case I don't know why players would ever not ready things against charge(s). Right down to carried treasure, when leaving the dungeon with that oak chest I make sure to ready it against possible charge(s).

2) Arbitrary or traditionally acceptable weapons can be readied based on historical precedent. Spears (Short spears?), lances etc... can be readied against charges. This would require a defined body of charge repelling weapons that I am not aware of. The first criteria of this group would seem to be length.

3) If length is the real issue than you define only by reach. This seems the most straight forward and workable. Functionally a 'readied' weapon has a point toward the attacker and the but grounded in the dirt or something solid. The weight from the attacker is resisted and the attacker is impaled or at least wounded by the braced weapon.

The last option doesn't require any simultaneous combat at all. Since a typical reach weapon cannot be used against targets in the adjacent square SRD Ref. There is no extra attack for the weapon when the attacker is adjacent. The charging attacker generates an AOA when leaving the reach weapon's threatened square, before attacking the spear holder. This is at double damage, if the spear was readied. If the defender has a shortsword and no reach weapon they attack as usual with a greater chance to hit based on the chargers unstable footing.

In standard sequential play a spear wielder with a long spear would get an AOA against the charging swordsman but would then find the attacker inside of their threaten zone. He would have to back up (risking an aoa himself?) or be able to modify\change their weapon to allow attacks against adjacent foes.


Sigurd


It seems to me that if you're not careful you make charges completely useless if reach weapons don't have a blind spot and if everything can be readied against them.

 

[Sigurd]

Longspear http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm

A longspear has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe. If you use a ready action to set a longspear against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character.



The attacker must continue through to the challenged space into space immediately beside the spearman. The spearman has had his turn after the readied attack. It would seem that the readying of the attack is a preparation for the attack of opportunity in this case.


This would be not so good for the spearman but basically that's the whole intention of a charge. Also the mechanics of an AOA are sort of not there because the spearman is not really pursuing the charger. The charger is continuing into the spearman's threatenned space but his weapon has a blind spot.


Sigurd

 

[Hypersmurf]

(Whether he retains the -2 to AC is another question).

The -2 doesn't kick in until you make your melee attack at the end of the charge. Readied attacks and AoOs that occur before that attack are against your normal AC, and if you don't attack at the end of the charge, then the section entitled "Attacking on a charge" (which includes the -2 AC penalty) won't come into effect...

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This would require a defined body of charge repelling weapons that I am not aware of.

The 'defined body' is "weapons which state they may be set against a charge". In the PHB, that's spear, longspear, halberd, and urgrosh. If you read the descriptions for those weapons, they state they can be set against a charge. The other weapons don't.

The attacker must continue through to the challenged space into space immediately beside the spearman. The spearman has had his turn after the readied attack. It would seem that the readying of the attack is a preparation for the attack of opportunity in this case.

Let's forget the 'set spear' option for the moment, and assume the longspearman has simply taken the Ready action in the form "If someone enters my threatened area, I'll attack him".

The attacker charges. When he enters the space ten feet from the longspearman, the longspearman's Readied action triggers, and he attacks. The attacker then continues his action, moving into the space five feet from the longspearman; this involves leaving a threatened square, provoking an AoO, which the longspearman takes before the attacker travels that last five feet.

So, with the readied action and the AoO, the spearman gets two attacks before the attacker finishes his charge.

----

If we assume that the 'set spear' action includes an implicit "If he charges me, I hit him" ready trigger, then the longspearman who sets his spear will also gain two attacks against the charging attacker, and the readied attack will deal double damage.

-Hyp.

 

[MarkB]

The attacker charges. When he enters the space ten feet from the longspearman, the longspearman's Readied action triggers, and he attacks. The attacker then continues his action, moving into the space five feet from the longspearman; this involves leaving a threatened square, provoking an AoO, which the longspearman takes before the attacker travels that last five feet.

So, with the readied action and the AoO, the spearman gets two attacks before the attacker finishes his charge.

----

If we assume that the 'set spear' action includes an implicit "If he charges me, I hit him" ready trigger, then the longspearman who sets his spear will also gain two attacks against the charging attacker, and the readied attack will deal double damage.

-Hyp.

Just out of interest, if we assume the opposite - that readying to receive a charge simply lets you deal double damage on an AoO - which option would be more advantageous: Readying a set longspear against a charge for double damage, or readying an action to attack and getting both the readied attack and the AoO?

I'm guessing it's the latter if the weapon deals any form of special additional damage (e.g. energy damage), since that wouldn't get doubled on the set attack. There's also the factor that the readied action will trigger upon any enemy approach, not just when a specific opponent charges.