Star Trek: Section 31

[pukunui]

Yeah it would work great as a secret romulan effort to subvert the federation. But the Amanda Waller style nonsense, of you gotta murder the murderers to win just doesnt work as presented.

It’s not just that. I strongly disliked the presentation of Section 31 in Picard – all the amoral scientists experimenting on living beings in torturous ways (this inadvertently creating the next villain) stuff.

That’s not Star Trek.

EDIT: Just to clarify – what I mean is having amoral scientists conducting awful experiments enployed by Starfleet is not Star Trek. I would’ve been fine with it if they’d not been part of Starfleet (or if some corrupt members of Starfleet were embezzling funds to pay for it).

It’s the idea that Starfleet / the Federation is OK with this clandestine stuff that I don’t like.

 

[nevin]

It’s not just that. I strongly disliked the presentation of Section 31 in Picard – with the whole amoral scientist experimenting on living beings in torturous ways stuff.

That’s not Star Trek.

I agree but there are bad guys in the star trek universe that would do things like that and could have been used to create the concept in a way that wouldn't create toxic cognitive dissonance with Star Trek. but I agree with you. section 31 was a mistake from its first introduction in deep space 9. And the studios seem oblivious to that.

 

[pukunui]

I agree but there are bad guys in the star trek universe that would do things like that and could have been used to create the concept in a way that wouldn't create toxic cognitive dissonance with Star Trek. but I agree with you. section 31 was a mistake from its first introduction in deep space 9. And the studios seem oblivious to that.

Yes. Exactly. The premise of Star Trek is that humanity can change for the better. There’s an actual functional utopian society on Earth.

The existence of a legitimate black ops department in Starfleet belies that premise. It’s basically saying that humanity can’t change for the better.

 

[Mort]

Yes. Exactly. The premise of Star Trek is that humanity can change for the better. There’s an actual functional utopian society on Earth.

The existence of a legitimate black ops department in Starfleet belies that premise. It’s basically saying that humanity can’t change for the better.

Yeah, the whole premise turns the Utopia into a facade - and that's both terrible and depressing.

Alex Kurtzman is the driving force behind this. He seems to really love Section 31, and from all indication, he seems to just not get how antithetical it is to Trek.

 

[payn]

I agree but there are bad guys in the star trek universe that would do things like that and could have been used to create the concept in a way that wouldn't create toxic cognitive dissonance with Star Trek. but I agree with you. section 31 was a mistake from its first introduction in deep space 9. And the studios seem oblivious to that.

I dont think it was a mistake in DS9 at all. It was outrageous such a thing would exist and quite a quandary for the Federation minded crew. However, the Dominion threat isnt like anything the Fed faced since the Borg. In the end, Bashear bests Sloan, and Odo is able to heal his people in true ST fashion. It got dark, but the ideals hold and was good story telling.

This attempt to anti-hero S31 is just bad all around. It was awful in Disco too.

 

[Mort]

It’s not just that. I strongly disliked the presentation of Section 31 in Picard – all the amoral scientists experimenting on living beings in torturous ways (this inadvertently creating the next villain) stuff.

That’s not Star Trek.

The whole obsession of some of the writers and showrunners with showing/exploring "the dark underbelly" of the federation is amazing to me. You'd think there would be someone along the chain who explains how against the very idea of Star Trek this is and maybe find a another focus, but nope.

But the people at the (like Kurtzman) seem to BE those encouraging the edgy nonsense, so little chance of it stopping.

 

[nevin]

I dont think it was a mistake in DS9 at all. It was outrageous such a thing would exist and quite a quandary for the Federation minded crew. However, the Dominion threat isnt like anything the Fed faced since the Borg. In the end, Bashear bests Sloan, and Odo is able to heal his people in true ST fashion. It got dark, but the ideals hold and was good story telling.

This attempt to anti-hero S31 is just bad all around. It was awful in Disco

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Mort]

I dont think it was a mistake in DS9 at all. It was outrageous such a thing would exist and quite a quandary for the Federation minded crew. However, the Dominion threat isnt like anything the Fed faced since the Borg. In the end, Bashear bests Sloan, and Odo is able to heal his people in true ST fashion. It got dark, but the ideals hold and was good story telling.

This attempt to anti-hero S31 is just bad all around. It was awful in Disco too.

Section 31 can work as villains, but even that's tricky.

Certainly not what's going on in this movie.

 

[payn]

We will have to agree to disagree.

ok.

Section 31 can work as villains, but even that's tricky.

Certainly not what's going on in this movie.

Right, S31 in DS9 was clearly not a good outfit. They used genocide as a means to end a war. Operated above any system of check and balances. It was an interesting take becasue all Trek up to DS9 was the galaxy through the Federation's eyes, but DS9 was the federation through the galaxy's eyes. Again, S31 was so good because even in the darkest hour, Federation ideals win out.

 

[pukunui]

Yeah, the whole premise turns the Utopia into a facade - and that's both terrible and depressing.

Exactly! I don't want that in my life right now ...

Alex Kurtzman is the driving force behind this. He seems to really love Section 31, and from all indication, he seems to just not get how antithetical it is to Trek.

Hmm. Yes. I see he was also responsible for Star Trek Into Darkness.

I dont think it was a mistake in DS9 at all. It was outrageous such a thing would exist and quite a quandary for the Federation minded crew. However, the Dominion threat isnt like anything the Fed faced since the Borg. In the end, Bashear bests Sloan, and Odo is able to heal his people in true ST fashion. It got dark, but the ideals hold and was good story telling.

This attempt to anti-hero S31 is just bad all around. It was awful in Disco too.

I agree with the latter comment. I stopped watching DS9 around the time TNG ended, so I'm not familiar with the later seasons of that show.

As an aside, one thing that I thought was weird about Discovery was how when Burnham first boarded the ship, she noticed a bunch of black-pinned guards standing around. I remember her asking about them and being told they were Section 31. But then I'm pretty sure we never saw them again. And when Section 31 showed up later in the series, it was a separate group who had their own ship and didn't wear uniforms let alone black pins. I guess maybe the black-pinned guards were an idea that got quietly dropped from the show.