D&D 5E Charisma Conundrum

[Zardnaar]

A while ago a poster whose name I forget made the comment that along the lines of 6E is only going to have dex and charisma.

We know about the Dex is Uber thing. So what makes charisma so good.

IMHO it's because the charisma classes are tuned fairly high power wise and due to the design of 5E intelligence is mostly a dump stat unless you're a wizard or one of two rogue and fighter archetypes.

Yes there's some int based skills but there's also charisma based skills.

The weakest charisma based class is the Sorcerer and it's not bad as such.

The other problem us the charisma based classes also peak in power early in the game. A level 3 wizard for example doesn't have a alot if spells, recalling then isn't that relevent and a lot of archetype features are not on either. My level 3 Celestial Warlock had agonizing blast and book of secrets so made a better ritual caster than the wizard, dealt more damage, healed, had charisma and had more spells assuming 2 short rests.

There's also power creep in Xanathars with the hexblade.

We all know how good lore cards are, bards in general and the Paladin gets their aura level 6.

So we have these classes peaking early while the wizard us still ramping up. The wizard will get better later on but it's going to take a while IMHO and the wizard is outclassed early in all 3 pillars by the warlock and utility as well IMHO. The wizard is more powerful later on but better now is better than latter on.

Now another factor is multiclassing. The Sorlock is infamous but Paladin's multiclassing into Sorcerers after level 6 or 8 are also a thing. Paladin Hexblades are another combo reducing MAD and AC is only one lower and you can key everything off charisma. Arcane gish fighter/warlock MC is also really good if hexblade is not an option. I don't think anyone will disagree to much over MC options being better.

My third point to make would be the charisma based races are also better. The half elf in the phb is an obvious example.

Other powerful races include variant Aasimar and Tieflings in SCAG and Mordenkainens. Volos Guide also has Yuan Ti in it another powerful race.

Even the Drow can be abused and it also has dexterity and good racial feats. It's drawback can be minimized with the warlock and careful spell selection. Alot of the races are also near human in appearance.

So that's my main arguements. There's alot of parts that make charisma Uber.

 

[Tony Vargas]

A while ago a poster whose name I forget made the comment that along the lines of 5E us only going to have dex and charisma.

We know about the Dex is Uber thing. So what makes charisma so good.

It's nearly the whole of the social pillar?

 

[Salthorae]

Charisma is so good because as @Tony Vargas said, it's nearly the entire Social Pillar, so 1/3 of the game, AND of the 6 casting classes, it makes up fully 1/3 of them (Bard,Sorcerer,Warlock), plus has bonuses in one of the primary Nova melee classes (Paladin).

It's one of the reasons I wish that Warlock was an Int based class to have the six core casting classes split 1/3 Int, 1/3 Wis, 1/3 Cha, but alas, that ship sailed long ago. Even if you exclude Warlock as a casting class, Cha represents then 40% of casting classes on top of the social skills.

To be fair, Wisdom is almost as good as Cha from a usefulness standpoint. Two Full casters, Ranger relies on Wisdom for many things, just like Cha has Paladins, and Wis actually has 1 more skill tied to it than Cha.

Cha skills are more on a theme than Wisdom which is kind of spread out in skill theme. That said Wis is the better stat for saves. When was the last time you had to make a Charisma save?

 

[Zardnaar]

Charisma is so good because as @Tony Vargas said, it's nearly the entire Social Pillar, so 1/3 of the game, AND of the 6 casting classes, it makes up fully 1/3 of them (Bard,Sorcerer,Warlock), plus has bonuses in one of the primary Nova melee classes (Paladin).

It's one of the reasons I wish that Warlock was an Int based class to have the six core casting classes split 1/3 Int, 1/3 Wis, 1/3 Cha, but alas, that ship sailed long ago. Even if you exclude Warlock as a casting class, Cha represents then 40% of casting classes on top of the social skills.

To be fair, Wisdom is almost as good as Cha from a usefulness standpoint. Two Full casters, Ranger relies on Wisdom for many things, just like Cha has Paladins, and Wis actually has 1 more skill tied to it than Cha.

Cha skills are more on a theme than Wisdom which is kind of spread out in skill theme. That said Wis is the better stat for saves. When was the last time you had to make a Charisma save?

Banishment and possession.

Not common save but more than intelligence.

 

[Salthorae]

Banishment and possession.

Not common save but more than intelligence.

Yes, but when was the last time your PC had to make a save vs. those? We make Wisdom saves almost ever session!

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, but when was the last time your PC had to make a save vs. those? We make Wisdom saves almost ever session!

Point. It's a minor save for a reason.

 

[FrogReaver]

Stats aren't strong in a vacuum. Perhaps the most important determining factor of relative stat power is the power and diversity of classes that rely on said stat.

 

[Yenrak]

I allow charisma to be used in battle. It can be used to feign a surrender or negotiate a mutual cease-fire, as long as this is narratively plausible. Just the other day, one of my players used Persuasion to talk two air-elementals into ending a fight that had badly damaged the elementals, knocked-out the other two players, but left her untouched.

"Look. You're hurt. My friends are down. Maybe you can take me. Maybe you can't. Could go either way. But there's one way we all get through this. You let me grab my friends and I walk out of here. So, what do you say?"

Roll Persuasion.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Stats aren't strong in a vacuum. Perhaps the most important determining factor of relative stat power is the power and diversity of classes that rely on said stat.

IDK, if you're not one of those classes it means nothing.
If your prime req is a great stat, that makes your class better.

 

[Charlaquin]

Old-school D&D was the nerdy kids’ game. In it, Strength was the most important stat for fighters, who were the best class in the early game, but grew linearly. Intelligence was the most important for magic users, who were weak and frail in the early game, but grew quadratically, caught up with and surpassed fighters in the mid game, and by the endgame were unstoppable overpowered gods for whom the puny fighters served as mere pack mules. The power fantasy is pretty obvious.

Modern D&D aims to appeal to a broader audience. No class is the clear best, and you can pretty much keep pace with everyone else whatever stats you favor. But, the smart physical combatant favors Dexterity because it can do everything Strength can and more. There are more spellcasting classes that rely on Charisma than any other mental stat, and any character who wants to contribute meaningfully in the social pillar needs at least some degree of investment in it. Who’s power fantasy is modern D&D? Theater kids.