CHARISMA: Is it a dud score?

[gizmo33]

ime weapon specialization has a prereq of lvl 4. and then greater weapon spec and improved weapon spec and epic specialization all have lvl dependencies...

And so that means that Charisma is just as useful as Strength in people's DnD games?

I don't use the 3.5 RAW, but I didn't think that mattered and the availabilty of greater weapon spec in people's games (in mine, it's not) I don't think would effect the basics of the issue.

 

[diaglo]

And so that means that Charisma is just as useful as Strength in people's DnD games?

I don't use the 3.5 RAW, but I didn't think that mattered and the availabilty of greater weapon spec in people's games (in mine, it's not) I don't think would effect the basics of the issue.

it means it can be.

it doesn't mean it is.

like you... most of the fighters i've seen take a high str and dump cha with the newer editions.

 

[Andor]

I'm not a fan of the "Charisma=mystical force of personality" design that seems to be on the increase in 3.0, although it has some interesting possibilities, it oftentimes seems to close to Wisdom for my tastes.

This just gave me the thought, what if CHR was mental dex instead of another form of mental power?

So for spell ranged attacks you use CHR instead of dex, and CHR is the base stat for feats like Weapon Focus:Ray.

So then you end up with each mental stat roughly paralleling a physical stat.
Int = Str
Wis = Con
Chr = Dex

This raises the spectre of 'mental nimbleness' saving throw but I don't think that's really needed. Perhaps say that the second save from slippery mind is based off of chr and leave it at that?

 

[gizmo33]

This just gave me the thought, what if CHR was mental dex instead of another form of mental power?

My preference is that Charisma be primarily related to reaction rolls and number of followers. What I don't like about "Charisma=force of personality" is that it seems to give up trying to make the traditional definitions of charisma really count for anything and, instead, tries to expand the definition into mystical realms where other abilities can be tied to it. For example, it seems now that "conviction of purpose" would be charisma based, even though there are probably plenty of charismatic people that aren't fanatics about any issue.

"Mental dexterity" seems to me would involve initiative also. Jumping out of the way of a fireball is physical as well as mental so I think the mental dexterity thing would involve a major rule change and would intrude into the traditional domain of Dex. Interesting symmetry with the mental and physical stats though.

What I basically see the problem being with Charisma is that these core activities are relatively unimportant in people's DnD games - either because
1. there are no events that require use Cha,
2. or the events are decided in ways that don't involve dice.

Possibly also because of the way that Cha is used in the rules, which might cause 1 and 2.

 

[Crothian]

As a DM I find it a bit harder to gauge where to draw the line with someone misrepresenting their intelligence. Where exactly to make the cut-off and say "You're not smart enough to come up with that plan".

DMing is a hard job and players will try to get away with things when the DM doesnm't tell them no. Sometimes it is on acciedent other times it is by a devious player but in the end it is the DMs responsibility to oversee the players.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

It depends on the style of game you are running/playing. My current group tends to like the tactical combat quality of D&D so in this group Charisma is certainly a dump stat. However, I have played in other games more RP centered where it can be most helpful. I do, however, believe that in the majority of games out there it is considered the dump stat since in my experience hack 'n slash games tend to make up the bulk of D&D games being run. Best bet when one first joins a group to make it a dump stat until you get a feel for the group (that or play a Sorcerer, Bard, or Paladin so it serves some use). If you find that they are hack 'n slash then you are set. If not, then make do the best you can until that character dies and then make your next character more charisma focused.

Also... for the record I am sick of it when people think Charisma is purely personal appearance. It is "Force of Personality"... that intangible "something" that makes popular people popular.

 

[blargney the second]

Psion mentioned earlier a link between Charisma and Wealth. If starting characters got a bonus/penalty of 100gp x Cha modifier, I can easily imagine dump-statting would be somewhat mitigated. Even a multiplier of 50gp might be significant enough to round out the effectiveness of ability scores.

Personally, I'd have no problem with a high-Cha low-Str character that started play with a masterwork weapon.
-blarg

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I'd have no problem with a high Cha/low Str character as long as the DM adjuticated the scores properly.

Situation 1 (the wrong way): High Str/Low Cha - You get all the benefits of having a high str but unless you are making a skill roll with a skill involving Cha you will never see the pinch of having a low Cha. NPC's treat the Low Cha just like they treat the High Cha characters.

Situation 2 (the right way): Low Cha vs High Cha - If DM's really gave Charisma the respect it deserved then the High Str/Low Cha fighters would feel they are getting the short end of the stick after every game session. High Cha characters are the ones getting special deals on room and board, equipment, and just preferential treatment in general. The lower someone's Cha score is the more they should get mistreated due to the fact that they are in general not the most pleasant people to be around, nobody wants to earn their favor or friendship because then they would be associated with that jerk of a warrior who keeps sticking his nose in business where it doesn't belong. High Charisma characters' actions should obviously always be viewed in the best possible light whereas Low Charisma characters should feel like they "Just can't win" because NPCs will always view their actions in the worst possible way (they must have had an ulterior motive).

The best way to look at it is in the extremes of the popularity ladder in high school. Popular kids (high Cha) vs. Unpopular kids (low Cha). Personal status can be affected by who you are seen associating with. The Unpopular kids get picked on, bullied, or just ignored. True, a low Cha/high Str Fighter isn't likely to get bullied but he is likely to run into the "Zone of Silence" and be made an outcast.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Lamoni]

Personally, I feel that Charisma isn't too bad. It is required by several classes and not others. The same can be said for strength. However, I also think that Charisma could still use a boost.

There have been several suggestions:
1. Rewrite the diplomatic skills so they make more sense and scale better.
2. Make CHA responsible for will saves (and change Will to init). Or at least have CHA affect saving throws in some way.
3. Have magic items work better for high CHA characters.
4. Increase loot for high CHA characters (I don't know how this would work, but maybe some rules with buying and selling using a CHA check for better prices could work).
5. Have spells deal more damage according to your CHA modifier
6. Use charisma checks in game to determine the probability of favorable random events in game (is there a chain in the truck?).
7. Do nothing. Charisma is a guide to how you should role-play your character. It doesn't need any other mechanics, just a DM to enforce how you let your character act.

I think that I like option 1 a lot, but that doesn't solve the problem too much because only one person in the party needs it. I have looked at other house rules and might modify a few of them to come up with my own. I think that option 2 would be the simplest solution that would cause it to affect every character. Right now I run a sorcerer and everyone else in my party has never had to use Charisma in any way. They could all have CHA of 4 and it wouldn't have made a difference. CHA has only improved with each edition, I wonder how it will improve in the next edition? Of course I'll only buy it after I get enough use out of my 3.5 books so I may be ready for it in about 5 years (that is a whole different topic though).

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

like you... most of the fighters i've seen take a high str and dump cha with the newer editions.

What does this have to do with the edition? Fighters dont' have minimum strength scores, like they did in the old days. In fact, it's much more rewarding nowadays to play a dextrous or charasmatic fighter, with the right feats.