CHARISMA: Is it a dud score?

[Kahuna Burger]

Is that sarcasm, because I see that at least as much as I've seen people "cheat" with Charsima?

no, its my experience. I've never seen anyone play acyively against a low int or wis the way many do cha. Most enjoy roleplain low mental stats aside from cha, ime.

 

[Henry]

no, its my experience. I've never seen anyone play acyively against a low int or wis the way many do cha. Most enjoy roleplain low mental stats aside from cha, ime.

I'll make one exception to this in my games; if someone came to me with a marginally low (6 to 9) CHA and maxxed out Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Bluff scores, I'd cut 'em a break. This would be analogous to someone in real life who is shy or boorish by nature, but who overcame it by working a lot on their personal skills (the fantasy equivalent to reading Dale Carnegie). Then, even if they had a low CHA, they've MORE than spent enough resources to make up for it. Mind you, I've never SEEN anyone that committed to story over optimization, but I'd allow for it.

 

[Particle_Man]

But mechanically, it is quite possible for someone to use CHR as a dump stat and max out chr skills. A rogue could pull that off, or even a fighter who wanted a good intimidate, or monk who wanted a good diplomacy, etc. The ability modifier soon fades compared to the skill ranks, even for cross-class skills.

So in theory we have the guy who is smooth-talking, a good liar, scary when he wants to be, etc., but who has...a low charisma?

It is the dump stat, unless it is tied to class-abilities. That is just the way it is. I think they should have tied a 4th saving throw to it or something like that, to make it somewhat more valuable.

 

[Henry]

It is the dump stat, unless it is tied to class-abilities. That is just the way it is. I think they should have tied a 4th saving throw to it or something like that, to make it somewhat more valuable.

Funny thing - you had the same thoughts I did, at the same time, apparently.

The only thing I'd dispute is that because it's not equally useful to all classes, it's a dump stat. By the same token, Wizards and Sorcerers could consider STR and WIS "dump stats" because the number of times they'll use it are quite rare in most games. Similarly, a Rogue would find WIS a dump stat, because it affects almost nothing for him; he'll have a low will save whether he has an 8 or a 15, and it affects little for him other than that -- UNLESS he's taking the social interaction route.

If anyting, there should be some subtle ways that CHA affects a party -- maybe if you're in a group, you take a Diplo/Bluff/Intimidate skill modifier equal to the party's average CHA modifier? Or maybe there should be a monthly upkeep a la Shadowrun, but it's affected by social skill scores?

 

[Moon-Lancer]

well cha is used for the two most usefull skills. Diplomacy and use magical device. With a high enuff diplomacy you can make anyone do just about anything if its high enuff. Use magical device lets you have access to any magic in the game. I would say cha is powerfull but still the weakest stat in the game, but alot of people overlook these two skills, even though they allow for the most amout of stuff to be done with them.

 

[Abstraction]

In 3E, I actually think that Int is better as a dump stat. A fighter with 10 Int, 2 skill points, no bonus languages. 8 Int, 1 skill point. 6 Int, still 1 skill point!. The fighter suffers absolutely nothing! Even more so than Charisma, there is bound to be another character in the party who can make the skill checks tied to Int.

 

[Psion]

Whether or not it deserves to be a dump stat -- as some have rightly pointed out, for certain classes it is indispensible, and certain game styles demand it -- it is, by and large, considered a dump stat considering how many players put their lowest stat there.

That's one thing I dig about Spycraft 2.0 is that it makes charisma count, even if you aren't a faceman or advocate.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

For a long time there has been talk about how Charisma is the 'dump stat', the ability you put your lowest score in. The reason for this is that most people consider it a useless, or at least worst, of the ability scores.

What do you think, generally speaking? Is it crap-tastic? Is it fantastic? My personal opinion is: it depends on the type of game you are playing. A heavily role-played game will probably feature lots of Charisma based skill checks, so it suddenly becomes important.

Your thoughts?

I see a lot of insults bandied about when it comes to Charisma, like "your game must be all about combat if your PCs don't use it".

I see it as a useless stat unless your class has a special class ability based on it, like sorcerer spells, paladin saves or the Charismatic Hero's Leadership talent tree.

I almost never see Charisma, on it's own, separated from the Diplomacy skill when it comes to discussions of RP or flavor. Diplomacy owns Charisma hands-on when it comes to social skills. Ranks just give you a much higher bonus than your ability score. I'd rather take 5 ranks in Diplomacy with Charisma 10 than no ranks in Diplomacy with Charisma 15.

Topping it off is the broken Diplomacy skill, which obscures the worth of Charisma. I suggest using Rich Burlew's rules for it.

How often do you see a low-Charisma character put points in Cha skills? Not that often. Thus, it's a valid yardstick in most cases.

I see it all the time in D20 Modern. I started a Three Kingdoms campaign recently, and the most diplomatic character is a Fast/Dedicated Hero with Diplomacy as an occupation skill - and a Charisma of 12. He achieved Diplomacy scores of 30 at least twice in the second session.

Linking Action Points to CHR is clever. After all, those things are all about STYLE.

Someone has to tell me how that goes. The last time I saw such a system was Alternity. Unfortunately, action points (called last resort points in Alternity) did not refresh unless you spend skill points on them. I saw precisely one last resort point used in two years or so of Alternity gaming.

D20 Modern has something like that for the Dedicated Hero - you can use your Wisdom bonus on your action points if you take at least 5 Dedicated levels and choose certain talents. We found more powerful action points to be worth more than more action points.

I see a problem with such a house rule in Eberron, too. Classes that use Charisma, like the paladin, turn it into a powerful ability score, independent of Diplomacy. The proposed rule could make the paladin a lot more powerful than intended.

 

[Justin Bacon]

For a long time there has been talk about how Charisma is the 'dump stat', the ability you put your lowest score in. The reason for this is that most people consider it a useless, or at least worst, of the ability scores.

Charisma is vastly, vastly, vastly improved over previous editions. So vastly improved that its improvement could fill three layers of the Abyss and leave a little to spill over into Orcus' bathroom.

But it's still the weakest of the stats.

It's key failing is that it isn't a foundational stat for any general-purpose use.

Strength directly affects melee attack rolls and damage rolls.

Dexterity directly affects ranged attack rolls and AC and Reflex saves.

Constitution directly affects hit points.

Intelligence directly affects skill points.

Wisdom directly affects Will saves.

Charisma directly affects... umm... nothing.

"What about Charisma-based skills?" I hear you cry.

Why, yes, there's seven of those. But they're not significantly superior to the skills tied to any of the other stats (with the exception of Constitution; but Constitution's boost to hit points already makes it a very, very useful stat).

I would also argue that the Charisma skills often fall into something of a Catch-22: Many campaigns that emphasize social interactions tend to actually de-emphasize the Charisma-based skills because those campaigns are more interested in resolving those interactions through roleplaying. Campaigns that don't emphasize social interactions, OTOH, tend to de-emphasize Charisma skills because those social interactions aren't coming up on a regular basis. (This is, of course, a gross generalization. There are many groups to which these generalizations won't apply. But it's not the primary problem; it's just a contributing factor in many cases.)

So, yes, I think Charisma can still be pointed to as the #1 Dump Stat in the game. The only people who worry about Charisma are those classes that depend on it for their class abilities. Lots of players use it as a dump stat. And I have never, ever seen a non-sorcerer PC with Charisma as their highest stat.

Justin Alexander Bacon
http://www.thealexandrian.net

 

[The Shaman]

Prompted by this thread, I took a look at the character sheets in the two games I'm GMing at the moment: among nine player characters, only one took CHA as a dump stat (which I'm defining as CHA <10 ).

Looking at another nine player characters that I've created in the last year or so - only one had a CHA 8, and it was a roleplaying choice.

Doesn't seem to be an issue in the games I play.

I'm also playing a Charismatic 3/Negotiator 2 in a Modern game right now, and I gotta say it's a kick-ass character - skills like Bluff, Intimidate, and Gather Information plus the Negotiator's class features make him a skilled HUMINT operative.

That's one thing I dig about Spycraft 2.0 is that it makes charisma count, even if you aren't a faceman or advocate.

Could you share a bit about how this works for those of us without the book?