Charisma, still the poor stat!

[Lord Vangarel]

Thanks again Schmoe!!!

So start with Indifferent and then make a Reaction check based on the speaker's Diplomacy skill. Good idea!

Bonedagger, I realise that a large part of the fault is mine by placing an emphasis on combat the players have naturally attuned their characters to be as good as possible at it. I wouldn't necessarily describe it as Munchkin but it can be frustrating. A change in playing style is definately required.

 

[Pielorinho]

First, IS Charisma really important in your game? If it's a hackenslashen festival, then it seems perfectly appropriate for players to make low-CHA PCs. After all, when you're looking for people to go lay the smackdown on village after village of humanoids, you're likely to get smelly thugs. The people who are good at social interactions are likely to adventure in towns, where they get to interact socially.

Assuming that your adventures have a fair amount of social interactions in them, I'd recommend that you take CHA and CHA-based skills into consideration in most encounters.

If a noble is meeting with the party, and the high-CHA player with the low-CHA character makes a suggestion, the noble can look over at the PC with a barely-concealed sneer, say nothing, and return to speaking to the high-CHA character.

If someone wants to commission a special weapon from the city's finest blacksmith, she better have a good CHA score, or she may find that the blacksmith doesn't have time for her nonsense.

If the rogue wants to go to a local tavern and buy drinks for the house in hopes of finding out some information on the mysterious murders in town, he better have a high CHA. A low-CHA rogue who tries this is gonna find out nothing, except that it's a bad idea to flash around a lot of money in a rough bar.

And I don't know about you, but my players lie their fool heads off just on general principle when they're talking to people in town. (I shouldn't mock: I often do the same thing when I play). Make them make bluff checks, and watch everyone cringe when the unnecessarily-lying barbarian rolls a 3.

In short, the best solution to making CHA an important skill is to introduce CHA-based scenes into your game.

Daniel

 

[Christian]

Right! (Warning-Sunless Citadel spoilers!)

This is worth emphasizing:

My players seem to enjoy the way it works, and since I've made it clear that they get experience for overcoming challenges whether it was accomplished via combat or diplomacy, they have a new respect for their silver-tongued bard.

Bingo, Schmoe. While I virtually never use published adventures, I do mine them for ideas, and this was a great one from The Sunless Citadel. The party has an opportunity to negotiate with the kobolds early in the adventure, and the sidebar indicates that they should get experience for this as if they had defeated the kobolds they encounter in combat. What a difference this can make for a cautious party! No hit points, spells, abilities, or ammunition used up-but all the experience nonetheless. Sunless Citadel is really an overbalanced adventure for a first level group that doesn't take advantage of this particular opportunity ... The same principle, used judiciously, can make a huge difference for any adventuring party. Anytime a potential enemy is avoided via diplomacy, the 'free experience' provides a strong incentive to keep trying this method!

 

[Bonedagger]

Well. I deleted that little hint right after I had posted because I didn't think it was quit fair but I see you where fast to react.

 

[Sodalis]

Lord:
what would be really nice would be some way of affecting the characters directly because they have this low stat.

just have a caster curse them. taking a -4 to cha dropping you to a 4 cha will hurt- especially if he does that again- and then finds some way of dropping thatstat below a 1 (curse can only take it to 1).

Or you can provide an encounter where the ONLY way of passing is by bargaining or sweettalking- but that is just picking on them.

My last bit is about the DM- why do the players need charisma? If they are happy playing this kind of game- why not let them? Why force them to play a diplomacy game when all they want to do is kill and hoard?

my $.02

 

[Schmoe]

Schmoe, thanks. That's the sort of change I want to achieve. So Diplomacy and Bluff but what else uses Charisma?

Well, I don't have my books available, but Use Magic Device and Gather Information are two that jump out at me. UMD is rather specialized, but Gather Information can be very useful if your campaign involves any sort of sleuthing or just generally tracking down rumors. Also, remember that using Gather Information takes several hours (an afternoon, an evening, etc) and requires around 10gp worth of bribes (all conveniently abstracted).

I don't know how your campaign is organized, but you could try the following scenario:

Assume that the PC's have a base of operations, such as a bar, and a standard dungeon that they like to delve into to explore and gather loot. During their time at the bar, if any of them express any interest in finding out about rumors, have them make a Gather Information check. Make it so that there are a couple of easily discovered rumors (DC 12 or so) that lead the PC's toward something to do. Then add another rumor, somewhere around DC 20, that gives the PC's clues to an easy stash of treasure.

If the PC's luck out and get the information to the easy treasure, they will be thankful that they were able to gather the appropriate information. If they don't get the rumor, have another PC group (at least equal in power to the PC's, to prevent smash'n'grab by your party) show up a week later with all of the glorious loot. Make sure that the players find out just how this other group of adventurers found the loot. Scenarios such as this will get the group thinking about Charisma and role-playing in a more positive light.

The key is that you don't want to constantly punish the players for having poor social skills, sometimes you want to reward them for having good social skills.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Personally I think Cha should affect any encounter that involves social interaction or projecting emotional energy. Therefore Cha should be the stat for calculating the DC for all spellcasters. Yes, including Clerics and Wizards.

That will require a bit more balancing between the Wiz and Sor classes.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

Sodalis, if all the players want to do is kill and hoard then it feels to much like moving pieces on a boardgame. I'm not saying that we don't have fun with this style of play at times but I think the combats would be even more fun if they actually mean something to the players other than the another step to the next level. Some of the best games I remember DMing had combats that were based on previous roleplaying encounters.

Harp, that's a good point thanks. Even the bad guys want a high charisma. Maybe if it related in to some sort of reputation type score somehow?

What I think I'll do is look again at the NPC reaction tables and maybe make some of the DC's higher to achieve special results. Any player can get lucky and achieve a 10 or higher 50% of the time even with a poor charisma but if the DC is 15 or higher then charisma becomes alot more important! Also where interaction is likely I think a bit of forethought about the motivations of npc's needs to be done on my part.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

Thanks for all the responses.

Schmoe, again good suggestions. By showing the party what a good charisma could do then I may be able to encourage the players to not dump on the stat in the future.

 

[Tallow]

Umbran, I've already made prices dependent on haggling, but what would be really nice would be some way of affecting the characters directly because they have this low stat.

LostSoul, thanks for the reply. Do you apply modifiers based on what the players say as well as the character's charisma or just the character's charisma?

I guess it's like the old 2nd Edition S&P book where players could take roleplay disadvantages for combat advantages. I feel that by dumping on charisma my players are still doing this. What I'd really like is a table that says ok, if you have a high charisma these are the "game" benefits you will receive then the players can compare it to say having more hit points from a good constitution.

Charisma will almost never have a combat advantage unless the class specifically uses Charisma (i.e. Sorcerer & Bard). So to affect players on a consistent basis, you could do this...

Equipment is a percentage cheaper or more expensive based on their Charisma Bonus. +1 is 10% cheaper. +5 is 50% cheaper. -2 is 20% more expensive. Same goes for selling gems for gold, etc. Not to mention all the interactive skills that use Charisma like Diplomacy, Bluff, etc. You could give them negatives on top of their attribute negative, for trying to cheese the rules on a consistent basis. I mean if I lived in a village, I'd get tired of running into mean ugly adventurers all the time.

Andy Christian