Charm Person before and after combat

[Rya.Reisender]

If you cast Charm Person on a creature you are fighting, the creature has advantage on its saving throw. What about creatures that would potentially fight you but are not currently fighting you either because the DM hasn't rolled initiative yet or because the PCs pretended to surrender and then cast the spell?

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Huh, why was the thread moved here? It was supposed to go to the 5e forum.

 

[iserith]

If you cast Charm Person on a creature you are fighting, the creature has advantage on its saving throw. What about creatures that would potentially fight you but are not currently fighting you either because the DM hasn't rolled initiative yet or because the PCs pretended to surrender and then cast the spell?

The rules say advantage to the save only applies to creatures you or your companions are fighting. In the situation you describe, I would probably rule this way: The enemies bust in and demand the PCs' surrender. The caster pretends to surrender and casts charm person. The goal is to cast charm person without the enemy getting advantage on the saving throw and the approach is some form of deception appropriate to the situation. The DM, uncertain as to whether the deception works, asks for a Charisma (Deception) check. Success means the PC achieves the goal. Failure means the PC does not, or does but with a cost.

 

[werecorpse]

If you cast Charm Person on a creature you are fighting, the creature has advantage on its saving throw. What about creatures that would potentially fight you but are not currently fighting you either because the DM hasn't rolled initiative yet or because the PCs pretended to surrender and then cast the spell?

"Are fighting" IMO means someone has thrown a punch. If you win initiative, no one has attacked the creature or its friends and it and it's friends haven't attacked you you are not yet "fighting" - no advantage on the save.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

"Are fighting" IMO means someone has thrown a punch. If you win initiative, no one has attacked the creature or its friends and it and it's friends haven't attacked you you are not yet "fighting" - no advantage on the save.

That makes sense in any circumstance that the initiative roll wasn't the direct result of someone declaring their intent to be fighting.

It's a no-go, in my opinion, to say you aren't fighting yet just because your desired charm target certainly wants to beat the tar out of you, so initiative was rolled, but his initiative is lower than yours so the punch that he is absolutely intent on throwing - if not already in the process of throwing, given the simultaneous nature of actions during a combat round - doesn't count as fighting.

 

[werecorpse]

That makes sense in any circumstance that the initiative roll wasn't the direct result of someone declaring their intent to be fighting.

It's a no-go, in my opinion, to say you aren't fighting yet just because your desired charm target certainly wants to beat the tar out of you, so initiative was rolled, but his initiative is lower than yours so the punch that he is absolutely intent on throwing - if not already in the process of throwing, given the simultaneous nature of actions during a combat round - doesn't count as fighting.

Your call, but I disagree.

In 5e you don't have a statement of intent section of the round. A person can have the intent to attack and change their mind after seeing what someone else did. I would not be granting advantage on a save just because initiative has been rolled and hostility is likely to break out. One of the appealing factors of the game IMO is that you don't have to fight, you might run, charm, beg for mercy, intimidate etc. So they might have "an intention to fight" when initiative is rolled but for any number of reasons may change their mind before its their turn. They may run, they may surrender, they may not need to fight because their enemy is defeated or they may no longer be able to fight because their enemy is out of range.

In some systems you have a "statement of intent" portion of the round. That's not how 5e works. 5e combat quite clearly isn't simultaneous you take turns and can react to what happened before your turn. So when the hobgoblin sees your party and draws his sword - then initiative is rolled, the wizard wins and casts a charm spell - I don't give him advantage on the save. If he had been shot at or attacked the group, I would.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

So when the hobgoblin sees your party and draws his sword - then initiative is rolled

Ah... there's our disconnect.

Initiative isn't rolled because the hobgoblin draws his sword, because we don't need initiative order if the hobgoblin is just wary of the party but not actually ready to attack them.

Initiative is rolled because the hobgoblin is going to attack, so we need initiative order to know if that attack resolves before anyone else has a chance to do anything.

 

[werecorpse]

P

Ah... there's our disconnect.

Initiative isn't rolled because the hobgoblin draws his sword, because we don't need initiative order if the hobgoblin is just wary of the party but not actually ready to attack them.

Initiative is rolled because the hobgoblin is going to attack, so we need initiative order to know if that attack resolves before anyone else has a chance to do anything.

Replace "draws his sword" with "draws his sword to attack" and I would rule the same way. Within the game he doesn't actually relevantly decide to attack until it's his turn in initiative - because he can change his mind. He might accept a bribe, see the halfling in front of him polymorph into a tyrannosaurus and run etc.

Where we disconnect is Our different interpretations of what is meant by "are fighting". I think that people "are fighting" once someone actually takes a swing, you consider people "are fighting" once someone decides that they will take a swing.

I can understand your point - i just disagree.

 

[dmnqwk]

I would rule it a Sleight of Hand precursor to combat.

The Enemies burst in and demand a surrender. One PC attempts to subtlety cast the spell and makes a SoH check versus passive perception.
If successful, the spell is cast and made without advantage on the roll, since there is no combat or overt signs of hostility.
If unsuccessful, before the spell is cast the motions cause the enemies to react angrily as one of the party is trying to cast a spell - causing initiative to be rolled (the PC doesn't get to cast the spell either, and if they choose to on their action of initiative, the save will obviously be made with advantage).

Nothing says you cannot enter combat for a round or two as the caster gets the spell off before ending it as the spell takes hold.

 

[S'mon]

If no combat has broken out yet, no Advantage.
I guess if Init has been rolled, the monster has not yet attacked or been attacked, and the caster casts Charm Person, I would not give the monster Advantage. If the monster has already attacked but not been attacked, and the caster says "Wait! We're friends!" I would be inclined not to give the monster Advantage. If anyone on the caster's side has attacked the monster or its friends then it gets Advantage.