My TLDR is at the end just scroll if you want no context:
So let me start by saying I am not the most PC guy, I never have been, most likely never will be. I laugh at mean jokes, my games often have things in them that could be seen as problematic by some (although to be fair I mostly know my players and there limits).
I even used to laugh at an old 3e Dragon mag joke about the Charm Person dating service, the hold person wedding chapel and the break enchantment divorce attorney.
However the Charm spells (enchantment in general) has always been a bit sticky. I even had a friend who used to joke that the jedi code forbids marriage and love, but not the jedi mind trick to suggest (like say the suggestion spell) to someone you were attracted to do something intimate that could not get them pregnant… (and yes this was in an old republic setting in an RPG were ¾ the players where Jedi)
I have also had to stop a(actually that same) player from suggesting that he could physically force himself on an NPC woman. All the while using a ‘joke’ that years later more or less was put in Tony Stark (a damn hero of the story) in avengers 2.
Now I can write off that bad player (not just for these but for MANY examples in the 5ish years we put up with him) but really he was doing the worst case of a bad situation.
Slight tangent: mind control in stories is not always evil Professor X when not written like a jerk (aka pick and choose your continuity) can be a good telepath. I am 100% sure we could fill a thread just with examples of GOOD telepaths that only force there will on others in dire circumstances… however even then we are left with what I see as the problem… invasion of privacy on the most intimate (not like that player) level and the horror of forcing someones will on someone else…
So lets start with Friends, Charm Person, and Suggestion (cantrip, 1st and 2nd level spells) they are the basics. I will be referencing 5e as the current edition I play but any RPG with these kind of effects could be the same.
Friends and charm person:
For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn’t hostile toward you. When the spell ends, the creature realizes that you used magic to influence its mood and becomes hostile toward you. A creature prone to violence might attack you. Another creature might seek retribution in other ways (at the DM’s discretion), depending on the nature of your interaction with it.
You attempt to charm a humanoid you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails the saving throw, it is charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you.
Okay, so these spells both really just give you advantage on cha skills… I mean good RP can do that in some (maybe even most) games so no biggie right…
Neither say they have the charmed condition but for sake of completeness here that is:
A charmed creature can’t Attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful Abilities or magical Effects.
The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature.
So even these most basic spells that apprentices can use already can mind effect… and force your will on others in some way (all be it minor).
Now I am a big proponent of martial abilities. I have even in other threads suggested that a high Cha rogue or fighter should be able to fast talk someone into being charmed as per the condition. I base this on growing up with a con man father (no not kidding, to this day I have to assume anytime he calls that any and everything he says is a lie, even things that don’t matter) and having worked adjacent to sales departments for years. I have seen people with what some would call a “silver tongue” be able to talk people into doing and saying ridiculous things that no sane person would do… however I also take those and see them in a dim light.
SO yeah charm is forcing your will on others, and in real life and stories we have all seen people do so for good or ill (how many shows have con men turn good and use the tricks to help people). We can again also fill this thread with characters with supernatural control that work for good or ill.
But now lets get to 2nd level suggestion.
You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically Influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can't be Charmed are immune to this Effect. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell.
The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it purses the course of action you described to the best of its ability. The suggested course of action can continue for the entire Duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do.
You can also specify Conditions that will trigger a Special activity during the Duration. For example, you might suggest that a Knight give her Warhorse to the first Beggar she meets. If the condition isn't met before the spell expires, the activity isn't preformed.
If you or any of your companions damage the target, the spell ends.
Now Order of the stick played with this a bit MANY years ago. They had someone cast it (maybe twice) first suggested “Kill your friends and bring me there magic items” and the character refused that was not in his character… so they reevaluated “Kill your friends and keep there magic items” and then the character said “OKAY”
Now that is played for laughs, but I started to think back to times I had seen suggestion used in games… to get discounts shopping (aka stealing) to get past guards (mostly good I mean better then killing them) an a few jokes here and there, but over all in the 30 (oh god is it really 30?!?) years I have been gaming we haven’t used it a lot.
However 1 time sticks out (at least one time that didn’t involve the above bad player) where my friend Becky used suggestion from her sorcerer (3.5) a few people at a party that the king was a tyrant. The reason for this had a goodish reason, the king was refusing to help with the main plot but the princess believed us, so we started to over throw the entire country to insert our puppet dictator…for the good of the world (yeah, that sounds bad I know..,)
SO I started to think about those party guests, and those guards, and even those shop keepers… and that yes it is just a game and they are not real, BUT what we are doing is oh so wrong to them. The R word that is not grandma friendly and could often be used to describe the above problem player’s actions is not something I would through around casually… but add the word mind in front of it and it gets pretty on the nose.
That is all before DOMINATE comes into play.
So now let’s bring this all together and
TLDR even low level enchanments can force your will on others and that is one of the most evil things you can do and we often play it off as no big deal. The trope is evil necromancer… but evil enchanter seem WAY scarier.
So someone suggested I wanted these spells removed from the game. Far from it, but a side bar in the 50th anniversary edition talking about the nature of how evil it is and the consequences could go a long way…
Now if you will excuse me I am off to make a Bard BBEG who is totally mind controlling a whole town.
So let me start by saying I am not the most PC guy, I never have been, most likely never will be. I laugh at mean jokes, my games often have things in them that could be seen as problematic by some (although to be fair I mostly know my players and there limits).
I even used to laugh at an old 3e Dragon mag joke about the Charm Person dating service, the hold person wedding chapel and the break enchantment divorce attorney.
However the Charm spells (enchantment in general) has always been a bit sticky. I even had a friend who used to joke that the jedi code forbids marriage and love, but not the jedi mind trick to suggest (like say the suggestion spell) to someone you were attracted to do something intimate that could not get them pregnant… (and yes this was in an old republic setting in an RPG were ¾ the players where Jedi)
I have also had to stop a(actually that same) player from suggesting that he could physically force himself on an NPC woman. All the while using a ‘joke’ that years later more or less was put in Tony Stark (a damn hero of the story) in avengers 2.
Now I can write off that bad player (not just for these but for MANY examples in the 5ish years we put up with him) but really he was doing the worst case of a bad situation.
Slight tangent: mind control in stories is not always evil Professor X when not written like a jerk (aka pick and choose your continuity) can be a good telepath. I am 100% sure we could fill a thread just with examples of GOOD telepaths that only force there will on others in dire circumstances… however even then we are left with what I see as the problem… invasion of privacy on the most intimate (not like that player) level and the horror of forcing someones will on someone else…
So lets start with Friends, Charm Person, and Suggestion (cantrip, 1st and 2nd level spells) they are the basics. I will be referencing 5e as the current edition I play but any RPG with these kind of effects could be the same.
Friends and charm person:
For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn’t hostile toward you. When the spell ends, the creature realizes that you used magic to influence its mood and becomes hostile toward you. A creature prone to violence might attack you. Another creature might seek retribution in other ways (at the DM’s discretion), depending on the nature of your interaction with it.
You attempt to charm a humanoid you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails the saving throw, it is charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you.
Okay, so these spells both really just give you advantage on cha skills… I mean good RP can do that in some (maybe even most) games so no biggie right…
Neither say they have the charmed condition but for sake of completeness here that is:
A charmed creature can’t Attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful Abilities or magical Effects.
The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature.
So even these most basic spells that apprentices can use already can mind effect… and force your will on others in some way (all be it minor).
Now I am a big proponent of martial abilities. I have even in other threads suggested that a high Cha rogue or fighter should be able to fast talk someone into being charmed as per the condition. I base this on growing up with a con man father (no not kidding, to this day I have to assume anytime he calls that any and everything he says is a lie, even things that don’t matter) and having worked adjacent to sales departments for years. I have seen people with what some would call a “silver tongue” be able to talk people into doing and saying ridiculous things that no sane person would do… however I also take those and see them in a dim light.
SO yeah charm is forcing your will on others, and in real life and stories we have all seen people do so for good or ill (how many shows have con men turn good and use the tricks to help people). We can again also fill this thread with characters with supernatural control that work for good or ill.
But now lets get to 2nd level suggestion.
You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically Influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can't be Charmed are immune to this Effect. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell.
The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it purses the course of action you described to the best of its ability. The suggested course of action can continue for the entire Duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do.
You can also specify Conditions that will trigger a Special activity during the Duration. For example, you might suggest that a Knight give her Warhorse to the first Beggar she meets. If the condition isn't met before the spell expires, the activity isn't preformed.
If you or any of your companions damage the target, the spell ends.
Now Order of the stick played with this a bit MANY years ago. They had someone cast it (maybe twice) first suggested “Kill your friends and bring me there magic items” and the character refused that was not in his character… so they reevaluated “Kill your friends and keep there magic items” and then the character said “OKAY”
Now that is played for laughs, but I started to think back to times I had seen suggestion used in games… to get discounts shopping (aka stealing) to get past guards (mostly good I mean better then killing them) an a few jokes here and there, but over all in the 30 (oh god is it really 30?!?) years I have been gaming we haven’t used it a lot.
However 1 time sticks out (at least one time that didn’t involve the above bad player) where my friend Becky used suggestion from her sorcerer (3.5) a few people at a party that the king was a tyrant. The reason for this had a goodish reason, the king was refusing to help with the main plot but the princess believed us, so we started to over throw the entire country to insert our puppet dictator…for the good of the world (yeah, that sounds bad I know..,)
SO I started to think about those party guests, and those guards, and even those shop keepers… and that yes it is just a game and they are not real, BUT what we are doing is oh so wrong to them. The R word that is not grandma friendly and could often be used to describe the above problem player’s actions is not something I would through around casually… but add the word mind in front of it and it gets pretty on the nose.
That is all before DOMINATE comes into play.
So now let’s bring this all together and
TLDR even low level enchanments can force your will on others and that is one of the most evil things you can do and we often play it off as no big deal. The trope is evil necromancer… but evil enchanter seem WAY scarier.
So someone suggested I wanted these spells removed from the game. Far from it, but a side bar in the 50th anniversary edition talking about the nature of how evil it is and the consequences could go a long way…
Now if you will excuse me I am off to make a Bard BBEG who is totally mind controlling a whole town.
