D&D 5E Charm, the evil spells

[Crimson Longinus]

okay, but it is still forcing (if save fails) you to feel a fake connection, and unlike time/skill (aka acutally becoming a friendly aquintence) you loose it after an amount of time,

Right. You're dazzled by their Hollywood glamour for a moment, but later you realise it might not actually have been wise to loan your car to this random person.

and in the case of friends they not only know but it says they WILL become hostil after.

Yeah, that is super weird. Why it is 'will' and not 'might'? Is there no option for them not minding it?

I don't see how a 9th level rogue ability (I think the only one) is any different then a 1st level spell. either way, even if we build in an exception for the rogue (I don't know why but to just for sake of argument)

I mean because the assumption is that the rogue ability is not magic. It is just the character being naturally super charming and likeable.

the charm spell itself still is at the very least a murky subject (and I would say an evil act)

Sure.

And frankly, I would prefer if the way it works would be more explicitly spelled out. Is the target's mind magically addled, or is the caster's persuasion magically boosted? (Sort of targeted illusion.) Whilst the latter could still be somewhat questionable, it to me would be far less problematic than the former.

 

[Maxperson]

Pushing someone out of your way could be defined thus, but no one considers it assault, much less rape.

People are arrested and charged with assault(and battery) for pushing all the time.

 

[Remathilis]

Pushing someone out of your way could be defined thus, but no one considers it assault, much less rape.

A decade of working in high school education tells me that yes, pushing someone out your way can be considered both. Don't believe me? Try to break up a fight between two students opposite your gender and see what accusations you open yourself up to.

The thrust of my argument remains though; most magic spells cannot be used as intended as a "good" act, unless you consider violence of some type or another a good act. I don't believe charm spells are alone in this, I in fact would say most spells are equally alarming, if for different ethical or moral reasons.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The knowledge of how to fight isn’t evil. Weapons aren’t evil. Physical violence does not, outside of nitpicky edge cases, rob anyone of their fundamental self. “What about stabbing people with magical lasers” doesn’t change the argument at all.

What it sounds like to me is that you value personal mental autonomy over the physical condition of your body, such that a person threatening the one in any capacity is always evil whilst a person threatening the other may not be. Is that accurate?

 

[HammerMan]

Right. You're dazzled by their Hollywood glamour for a moment, but later you realise it might not actually have been wise to loan your car to this random person.

through magical force that broke through your will power...

Yeah, that is super weird. Why it is 'will' and not 'might'? Is there no option for them not minding it?

I assume it is becuse it is a violation and it would be A HUGE execption for someone not to care.

I mean because the assumption is that the rogue ability is not magic. It is just the character being naturally super charming and likeable.

okay I said for the sake of argument carve it out...

Sure.

And frankly, I would prefer if the way it works would be more explicitly spelled out. Is the target's mind magically addled, or is the caster's persuasion magically boosted? (Sort of targeted illusion.) Whilst the latter could still be somewhat questionable, it to me would be far less problematic than the former.

 

[Mind of tempest]

A decade of working in high school education tells me that yes, pushing someone out your way can be considered both. Don't believe me? Try to break up a fight between two students opposite your gender and see what accusations you open yourself up to.

The thrust of my argument remains though; most magic spells cannot be used as intended as a "good" act, unless you consider violence of some type or another a good act. I don't believe charm spells are alone in this, I in fact would say most spells are equally alarming, if for different ethical or moral reasons.

so I am right that all things are sort of evil in dnd and thus that arguments are futile as what is good is what is not harming people in any way devisable?

 

[Lanefan]

I don't know for sure... I have some ideas.

something like "We think of physical force, but the idea of mental force is a fantasy aspect of the game. remember when you use charm/enchanment/mind effects you are performing mental violence's and mentally violating the target. "
I don't know I don't get paid to write the books, I am sure that we can find someone to write something better.

Edit: I almost forgot... I think WoTc SHOULD take a stance, this is not a neutral idea, forcing someone to do your will is pretty dark... and playing 'the voice' or 'jedi mind trick' or 'charm person' as anything less then a violation of other seems weird to me... but we do violat others all the time in games...

I don't think this will fly somehow.

They tried putting sidebars regarding the occult in some 2e stuff to placate the Satanic-panic crowd and that was little better than a joke. This may end up being seen in a similar light by enough people to not really make it worthwhile.

Sidebars regarding violence in the game (a far bigger issue/non-issue IMO) would similarly fall on deaf ears.

 

[HammerMan]

so I am right that all things are sort of evil in dnd and thus that arguments are futile as what is good is what is not harming people in any way devisable?

so we can (AS ALWASY) pick what hills we will die on... mine is charm/dominate/suggestion..

 

[Lanefan]

But name me one instance of mind control being used for legitimate good.

Isn't or wasn't hypnotic therapy (a form of mind control) used to attempt to change the thoughts and-or mind patterns of the criminally insane, in order to make them less so?

If yes, there's your instance.

 

[Mind of tempest]

so we can (AS ALWASY) pick what hills we will die on... mine is charm/dominate/suggestion..

no, I am suggesting ALL action from magic to swords is evil and thus these are discussions in pointlessness.