China Mieville on Tolkien and Epic/High Fantasy

mmu1 said:
I'm not saying it's a realism issue, or that I have a problem with fantasy worlds that work by different rules than our own.

I don't like Mieville's writing because his world doesn't really convey the sense of having any rules, other than "what could I think of to make this feel more like The City of Lost Children" leavened with a helathy does of politics I won't comment on.

It's the difference between being a pretentious ass of an "artist" and a true fantasy writer who creates a living, breathing world with a sense of history like Tolkien, Brust or Martin. (Or even Mieville's hero Pullman, as much as I despise him for peddling something as obviuosly ideological and manipulative as the Amber Spyglass series as children's literature.)
I agree. I guess that's what was in my head as I wrote my last post, just didn't make it out. If a writer is going to create some new world, I'd like that author to somehow lay out the rules and explain it. I don't have a problem with breaking the rules and creating new ones. I just want it explained. From my last post, I don't mind if a world has a green sky and blue trees, as long as the author tells me why they're like that. If they just want to create a cool world, sense and logic be damned, then that's where they lose me.
 

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mmu1 said:
I'm not saying it's a realism issue, or that I have a problem with fantasy worlds that work by different rules than our own.

I don't like Mieville's writing because his world doesn't really convey the sense of having any rules, other than "what could I think of to make this feel more like The City of Lost Children" leavened with a healthy does of politics I won't comment on.

It's the difference between being a pretentious ass of an "artist" and a true fantasy writer who creates a living, breathing world with a sense of history like Tolkien, Brust or Martin. (Or even Mieville's hero Pullman, as much as I despise him for peddling something as obviuosly ideological and manipulative as the Amber Spyglass series as children's literature.)
Okay, I think I see the problem: City of Lost Children and The Amber Spyglass are other favorite works of mine. I don't care much about whether the physics of a world are internally consistent, or explained; I don't read fiction for lessons in physics, even in weird physics.

Your comment about the difference between a pretentious ass of an "artist" and a true fantasy writer frankly says more about you than it does about the folks you're talking about. Ad hominems are no way to argue a point.

Daniel
 
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Pielorinho said:
Okay, I think I see the problem: City of Lost Children and The Amber Spyglass are other favorite works of mine. I don't care much about whether the physics of a world are internally consistent, or explained; I don't read fiction for lessons in physics, even in weird physics.

Your comment about the difference between a pretentious ass of an "artist" and a true fantasy writer frankly says more about you than it does about the folks you're talking about. Ad hominems are no way to argue a point.

Daniel

So why are you resorting to it?

I have no problems with City of Lost Children whatsover, I'm simply saying Mieville is unoriginal in his writing... And anyone who feels the need to promote himself by referring to the work of a veteran writer as a "boil on the ass of fantasy that needs to be lanced" most certainly is a pompous :):):):):):):), among other things. It's a statement of fact, not an Ad Hominem attack.
 

I didn't resort to ad hominems, friend. Don't say otherwise.

I honestly don't know how anyone who's read Mieville can accuse him of unoriginality. Of not explaining his world sufficiently, of having a crowded messy novel, sure -- I disagree with those assessments, but I can understand them. But unoriginal? He's one of the most original voices out there right now.

And I don't see his criticism of Tolkien as self-promotion at all: I see it as a passionately-held viewpoint with which I disagree.

Finally, calling someone a line of smiley-faces is the definition of an ad hominem. But if you're going to play games, I can just ignore you; lemme know if that's your intent.

Daniel
 

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Joshua Dyal said:
I think I understand what you're saying, and at this point I'm at about 95% agreement with you.

I'm happy I was finally able to convey myself clearly. I really didn't mean to make it seem like Lord of the Rings was some trival work that Tolkien didn't put his heart into.

Where I'd still disagree with you, I guess, is that I believe many of the elements of Middle-earth society, particularly amongst the hobbits, are more than just story-telling conventions, I believe that that was Tolkien's idealized society. But, all in all, that's a relatively minor issue.

Tolkien did have a love of the rustic life and a healthy respect for nature. I always felt he modeled the hobbits off an English farming community.
 

Dimwhit said:
I tend to lean toward the second type of reader. I don't like vastly different realities without an explanation. For example, I'm always bugged by stories that contain a world with a green sky. How did that happen? The only way I can think of to have a green sky is to have a completely different color spectrum than we have in our world. Doesn't seem possible, even for fantasy.
That's actually a fairly easy one. Mars, for example, has an orangish/reddish sky because of orangish/reddish dust microparticles suspended in the air. It's not hard to imagine a greenish dust, or even micro-organism with a chlorophyll base occupying the same role. It might even be a higher level of the atmosphere where they are suspended.
 

Pielorinho said:
I don't care much about whether the physics of a world are internally consistent, or explained; I don't read fiction for lessons in physics, even in weird physics.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? I didn't say physics, I said rules. Structure. A logical framework. A sense of cause and effect. It's cheap and easy to fill your work with contradictions to make it appear exotic and complex, but without some sort of background (and there's no reason it can't be a subtle one, I don't read novels for fantasy physics either) it's no more meaningful than having a character behave in bizzare and illogical ways for the sake of style with no explanation of his thought process or motivation.

Without those things, what you've got is a "weird" fairy-tale, something Mieville likes to accuse others of writing.

As for his originality... Creatures that feed on dreams, bird-men, plant-men, cyborgs, people with bug-parts, body-snatchers, a penchant for clockwork - hardly anything special, there. Aside from crisis energy, maybe (although that makes me think of Pratchett, for some reason...), but that gets lost under hundreds of pages of Mieville jerking off on the subjects of rust and oil stains on facotry buildings, seeping down like metaphorical tears shed by the workers trapped there by the evil authoritarian capitalists.
 



Alright, now I'm digging in my heels.

A number of ya'll are continuing to insist this authorial intention jag. So here goes, one last kick at the can.

I'm arguing that we evaluate interpretations of artistic works according to how well they are supported by the work and how interesting they are.

But let me back up a bit.

Every sensory act we perform involves interpretation. I walk down the street and interpret the pattern of light on my retina to guide my course. Appreciation of an artistic work, therefore necessarily involves interpretation.

Even reading a story for no purpose other than entertainment involves interpretation. Interpreting a story as "pure entertainment" is as much an interpretation as writing an essay on how it reflects the moral struggle of all people. So whenever we read, we create an interpretation (possibly more than one) of the work.

Now we will from time to time encounter differing interpretations of the same work. They may be our own (perhaps created at different times -- say you read LotR at age 12 and then again at age 40 -- you'd probably interpret it differently) or they may be interpretations created by others. Some of these interpretations may contradict each other, and so we will need a way to choose between them if we want to have a consistent interpretation of the work (although certainly a work can contain inconsistent ideas within it -- but IF we want to present a consistent view, we'll have to find a way to choose between interpretations) (let's not get TOO post-modern, here).

How do we do this? I am suggesting that because an interpretation corresponds to a statement by the author is no reason to prefer it over other interpretations. The only meaningful way to determine which interpretations are better than others is by comparing them to the text, and comparing their intellectual content. Better supported ideas, more intelligent and interesting ideas, these are hallmarks of better interpretations.

We can most certainly use statements by the author to GENERATE interpretations. But to use them in choosing between interpretations is faulty logic, because such statements may or may not accurately reflect the text, and correspondence to the text is in all cases more important than correspondence to statements by the author. We may find that some authors are more reliable reporters on their own work, and therefore sometimes shortcut the process by listening to them. But if we were to find a contradiction between an author's statement and the text itself, we would of course prefer the text as a source of authority on itself. So we may as well start with the text, since in all cases we have to go back to it.

Now, if you're interested in unravelling some message the author has incorporated into the work, then sure, you'll probably want to start with the author's statements as to what message they included. This becomes one interpretation -- which may not be the best one. But to study art from the point of view of "how successfully did the author transmit a message" is to study essay-writing.

If Animal Farm is nothing more than a furry version of the creation of Communist Russia, then it's just history. Or, more to the point, if we read it as such, then we're treating it as history and would almost certainly gain more from reading a good history book on the issue, where the names were correct and we weren't getting all caught up animal husbandry or whatnot. If we read it as a work of art, one that instead of having "a message", admits to a myriad of interpretations, ideas about tyranny and privilege and so on, then what we need to do is determine which of those interpretations (assuming some contradict each other) are better -- which, one more time, we do by comparing them to the text and by comparing their intellectual content.

And frankly, an interpretation of Animal Farm to the effect that it is the story of the Russian Revolution doesn't carry a lot of intellectual content. It's not a very interesting thing to say. Even when said by George Orwell.

Now, you may say you're interested in the intention of the author, and that's FINE. In that case, by all means, you'll want to read the author's statements, compare them with the work (just to be sure, of course, or to see HOW they went about trying to do what they wanted to do), maybe read statements by people who knew the author, and so on. This is a fine and noble profession, and it's called biography. It can be fascinating and enlightening and worth spending time on indeed.

I have spent too much time going through the letters and journals of Lord Byron to consider it a worthless pasttime. :D

One of the upshots of all this is that statements about a work do not necessarily imply anything about the author. And when Mieville said what he said about Tolkien, I very much took him to mean the work, not the man. He considers LotR to glorify war, to celebrate class injustice and so on.

Now, I agree that his statements could have been read in either fashion. And as statements on Tolkien's actual beliefs, we of course turn to Tolkien's statements on the subjects at hand. But as interpretations of the book, we can only refute them by offering reasons within the text. Pointing to statements made by Tolkien about the text cannot refute interpretations that are based on the text itself. And frankly, I don't think it's necessary. I think the suggestion that LotR glorifies war is facile and demonstrates a lack of familiarity with the text.

Or possibly, a lack of familiarity with the terms "glorify" and "war".

Whew. Tired now.
 

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