D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[steeldragons]

Alright...swing numero deux. These are not to say features are only acquired at these levels, more a snapshot/framework for what the class can do at these various levels...and then we can pick apart/comments/analysis of why they are or are not balanced or fair or powerful enough or whatever.

Fighters
Fighters fight. All weapons. All armors. Highest HD/most HP (no top level for HD).
*Most Rapid Proficiency Bonus advancement: +2, +1 Every other level.
Archetype/Subclass at 3rd. Features at 3rd, 7th, 10th, 15th, 18th.
Ability Scores increases as normal (4/8/12/16/19)

• 1st level: Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge.
• 5th level: Extra Attack (2/rd). Additional Fighting Style (2). Physical Stat Save Bonus. Situational Interactive Bonus. Combat Maneuvers (2).
• 10th level: Extra Attack (4/rd). Additional Actions. Additional Second Winds. Combat Maneuvers (4). Battlefield Leadership/Control bonuses for allies. Attacks count as Magical +1, with or without magic weaponry.
• 15th level: Extra Attack (6/rd). Additional Fighting Style (3). Maneuvers (6). Additional saves/combat skills to defeat Magic/Supernatural Effects. Attacks count as Magic +2.
• 20th level: Extra Attack (8/rd). Second Wind at will (beneath half HP). Attacks always count as magical. Additional Action.

Mages
Mages cast spells. No armor. Most limited weapons. Lowest HD/least HP (HD caps at 10)
Slowest Proficiency Bonus advancement: +2, add +1 every 4th level (4/8/12/16/20).
Archetype/Subclass at 3rd. Features at 3rd, 6th, 10th, 14th.
Ability Score Increases as normal.

• 1st level: Cantrips. 1st level spells. Arcane Recovery.
• 5th level: 1st-3rd level spells. Spell Attack bonus. Lore & research roll bonuses.
• 10th level: 1st-5th level spells. Signature Spells (1st & 2nd level). Magic Item creation.
• 15th level: 1st-7th level spells. Spell Mastery (1st-3rd level).
• 20th level: 1st-9th level spells. Signature spells (3rd level).

Clerics
Clerics channel divine power to support combat and magic. All armors. Some weapons. Second highest HD/good HP (max HD at 12th level).
Middling Proficiency Bonus: +2, +1 every 3rd level (3/6/9/12/15/18)
Archetype/Subclass at 3rd. Features at 3rd, 6th, 10th, 14th.
Ability Score Increases as normal.

• 1st level: Channel Divinity (1 + Wisdom modifier/day).
• 5th level: Divine Spells 1st-2nd. Destroy Undead (HD1). Save Bonus.
• 10th level: Channel (2 + Wis. mod./day). Divine Spells 1st-4th. Destroy Undead (HD2).
• 15th level: Divine Spells 1st-6th. Destroy Undead (HD3). Save Bonus.
• 20th level: Channel (3 + Wis. mod./day). Divine Spells 1st-7th. Destroy Undead (HD5).

Thieves
Thieves use diversity of skills to support combat and exploration. Limited armor. Most weapons. Third highest HD/good HP (max HD at 15th)
Middling Proficiency Bonus: +2, +1 every 3rd level (3/6/9/12/15/18)
Archetype/Subclass at 3rd. Features at 3rd, 7th, 10th, 15th, 18th.
Ability Score Increases as normal.

• 1st level: Expertise (2). Sneak Attack (+1d6). Cunning Action.
• 5th level: Expertise (4). Sneak Attack (+3d6). Uncanny Dodge. Situational interactive bonus.
• 10th level: Expertise (6). Sneak Attack (+5d6). Evasion. Reliable Talent. Additional Action.
• 15th level: Expertise (8). Sneak Attack (+8d6). Blindsense. Slippery Mind. Broad Interactive bonus.
• 20th level: Expertise (all). Sneak Attack (+10d6). Elusive. Stroke of Luck. Additional Action.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Don't you stop being mudane around 9th level or so?

Arnt high level Fighters able to go toe to toe with GODS?


There are dozens of way to address this issue, but finding one people won't object to is another challenge...

 

[Remathilis]

This gets a big "And...?"from me. A 5th level warlock can take an invocation that allows them to be invisible at will (as an action and as long as they are in dim light or darkness).

Why can't a rogue of sufficiently high level be "so stealthy" as to effectively be invisible at will too - it doesn't have to be magic.

The designers have started leaking stuff like this in - and it's great. For ex. the gloomstalker ranger is invisible to darkvision - it's not magic it just is.

Plenty of ways to give martials good stuff without magic or breaking the balance of the game.

Is having a 20th level rogue able to mimic what a 5th level wizard could do sufficient progress?

 

[Micah Sweet]

It seems like the no-magic Fighter fans are ok with powerful magic items.

So: give high level Fighters powerful magic items as their class features.

That way, Fighters can cast spells, albeit, it is their gear that allows them to do it.

It is the difference between Batman with magical gear versus Superman with innate powers.

This is a FANTASTIC compromise, and I completely support it.

 

[Maxperson]

It seems like the no-magic Fighter fans are ok with powerful magic items.

So: give high level Fighters powerful magic items as their class features.

That way, Fighters can cast spells, albeit, it is their gear that allows them to do it.

It is the difference between Batman with magical gear versus Superman with innate powers.

I'm in the camp that is fine with fighters as they are, but is fine with them getting more toys as well. I just want the super duper toys to be supernatural abilities if they transcend what a normal human is capable of. That said, I've seen a lot of people who want, and understandably so, those toys to be innate to the class and not item dependent. It would suck for you to be better at your class only because you got a magic item, AND to have said abilities dependent on said item not leaving you. If item is broken or stolen, there went your high level ability.

 

[Staffan]

Xena seems to be about where I'd want a high-level mundane-ish fighter to be. She is a master of multiple fighting techniques, including pressure points that allow her to do near-magical stuff, and she can perform physical feats that are clearly way beyond what real-world athletes can do. But they still seem like things you could do with muscle and reflexes if you just had enough of them.

I would also like to see classes that use magic as part of their combat style, without that magic being in the form of spells. I'm thinking things like the WoW enhancement shaman who mixes elemental magic with force of arms in order to set their foes on fire, or strike with the swiftness of the wind, and things like that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Okay, so if the fighter in YOUR game takes it they have to have a story beat to go with it. That's cool but is that a reason not to let anyone have it? I can come up with plenty of story beats for foresight.

I meditated for 6 months with a master to learn to anticipate my enemies every move...

If you have a good explanation for it, I'm cool with just about anything.

 

[Maxperson]

Don't you stop being mudane around 9th level or so?

Arnt high level Fighters able to go toe to toe with GODS?


There are dozens of way to address this issue, but finding one people won't object to is another challenge...

It depends on the DM. I like gods to be......................................gods, not high level monsters. In my game if you don't have the aid of another god or some sort of plot mcguffin, a 20th level party is going to be easily dusted by even lesser gods.

 

[Yaarel]

I'm in the camp that is fine with fighters as they are, but is fine with them getting more toys as well. I just want the super duper toys to be supernatural abilities if they transcend what a normal human is capable of. That said, I've seen a lot of people who want, and understandably so, those toys to be innate to the class and not item dependent. It would suck for you to be better at your class only because you got a magic item, AND to have said abilities dependent on said item not leaving you. If item is broken or stolen, there went your high level ability.

For magic items that are magical features, I can see the item having a form of "attunement" that can automatically summon the item to hand from anywhere.

For me, I definitely want the powers to be innate. That is why I strongly prefer psionics that eschew all external spell components.

I prefer the "Superman" innate powers. But I can see that some people prefer the "Batman" gear powers. D&D can easily allow for both esthetic preferences.

 

[Mort]

Again, so that is more a problem IMO. I would LOVE to see the next D&D designed so not everyone is equally able to contribute to combat...

Never ever happen, at least not officially!
While not 100% universal by any means, combat is generally BY FAR the most used pillar of the game.

Certainly it's the most mechanically supported/structured. If a version of D&D came out where there was a class not useful (or even less useful) in combat the uproar would be like nothing yet heard! At the very least, the class in question would be sidelined and declared near useless.