D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[AdmundfortGeographer]

What if the solution is to not have casters step all over the role of damage dealing? Leave that to martial classes to shine, but keep a few damage magic around that they can’t spam all over the day.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm in the camp that is fine with fighters as they are, but is fine with them getting more toys as well. I just want the super duper toys to be supernatural abilities if they transcend what a normal human is capable of. That said, I've seen a lot of people who want, and understandably so, those toys to be innate to the class and not item dependent. It would suck for you to be better at your class only because you got a magic item, AND to have said abilities dependent on said item not leaving you. If item is broken or stolen, there went your high level ability.

Sure, but you can always build in the idea in the class features that your signature item(s) can't be taken away from you for long, making them akin to lacking the requisite components/arcane focus needed to cast spells. Many games do this. Its a little more narrative, but not beyond the line for me.

If that bothers you, make the process of attunement grant the ability to summon the item. As an ability granted by the item, this shouldn't break anything.

 

[Maxperson]

For magic items that are magical features, I can see the item having a form of "attunement" that can automatically summon the item to hand from anywhere.

For me, I definitely want the powers to be innate. That is why I strongly prefer psionics that eschew all external spell components.

I prefer the "Superman" innate powers. But I can see that some people prefer the "Batman" gear powers. D&D can easily allow for both esthetic preferences.

For my part, I wouldn't mind a "Batman" fighter, but I'd want it designed that way as it's own subclass, or perhaps even a completely separate class. I don't think tossing it into the current fighter would do either concept any favors.

 

[Lanefan]

If spellcasting is the high-reward option vs the lower-reward options open to the martial then the obvious trade-off is to make casting higher-risk in tandem with the higher reward.

And this is where WotC-era D&D really missed the boat: in 3e they took out almost all the risks from casting but left the rewards in place, then in 4e-5e they doubled down by taking out the few remaining risks but also nerfing a lot of spells.

The answer, IMO, is to bring back the risks. Make casting a spell something that can be easily interrupted (and add in that interrupting a spell risks a wild magic surge!). Build inherent risks back into certain spells (polymorph, teleport - I'm looking at you!), meanwhile make casters roll to aim their AoE spells and bring back risk-generators like rebounding lightning and expand-to-volume fireballs.

Do all that, and suddenly casters aren't the be-all and end-all in combat - they have to pick their spots.

The only way to rein the casters in outside of combat is by adding monetary costs to spells, not my preferred choice but nothing better has yet suggested itself.

 

[Micah Sweet]

What if the solution is to not have casters step all over the role of damage dealing? Leave that to martial classes to shine, but keep a few damage magic around that they can’t spam all over the day.

Wouldn't work. That's taking away content again.

 

[Mort]

Xena and Hercules aren't exactly "every fighter", they're the two (or certainly two of the) absolute highest-level fighters in the setting.

Never mind that Herc's also half-deity and it's left open-ended whether Xena is as well.

Not going to touch Hercules, but with Xena - she absolutely encounters others that are at or at least near her level of prowess. It's very much a given, in that universe, that with enough training etc. humans can exceed normal limitations - even without magic.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not going to touch Hercules, but with Xena - she absolutely encounters others that are at or at least near her level of prowess. It's very much a given, in that universe, that with enough training etc. humans can exceed normal limitations - even without magic.

Cool! Sounds like a great conceit for the right setting.

 

[Mort]

If spellcasting is the high-reward option vs the lower-reward options open to the martial then the obvious trade-off is to make casting higher-risk in tandem with the higher reward.

And this is where WotC-era D&D really missed the boat: in 3e they took out almost all the risks from casting but left the rewards in place, then in 4e-5e they doubled down by taking out the few remaining risks but also nerfing a lot of spells.

The answer, IMO, is to bring back the risks. Make casting a spell something that can be easily interrupted (and add in that interrupting a spell risks a wild magic surge!). Build inherent risks back into certain spells (polymorph, teleport - I'm looking at you!), meanwhile make casters roll to aim their AoE spells and bring back risk-generators like rebounding lightning and expand-to-volume fireballs.

Do all that, and suddenly casters aren't the be-all and end-all in combat - they have to pick their spots.

Problem is there are SO MANY spells. IME if some spells have drawbacs and others don't? Casters just pick the ones that don't.

Want a true drawback - it has to be universal. Such as strain as I suggested earlier (every time a caster casts a spell they have to make a DC 11+spell level CON check failure equals half the spells level in exhaustion) then casters will tread carefully!

The only way to rein the casters in outside of combat is by adding monetary costs to spells, not my preferred choice but nothing better has yet suggested itself.

Strain will work outside of combat too. Sure you can cast that knock spell, but you might drop from exhaustion right after.

 

[Oofta]

Two tangents that have always bothered me are:

Why are full casters (with no real combat training) going out in situations where nose to nose small scale combat will be regular? Why aren't the full caster ones back in the wizards school or doing research? It's not like Gandalf wasn't awesome enough with the sword to take on a freaking Balrog.

Why are the clerics that go out with all that armor and spells full casters? Why aren't there some even better casters back in the temples who have passed on the combat stuff.

So, getting back to the thread...

How do the fighters feel if the Wizards and Clerics going out with them are half-casters half-combat?

Or did this ship sail way back in 1e and 2e when (as @HammerMan and @DND_Reborn noted upthread) the balance was the M.User having to live through the first few levels being useless with no hitpoints?

Since full casters (if I understand correctly) are not appropriate as adventurers, they are not mentioned in the PHB. You generally don't need a class for something that will never be played. Therefore it falls into the realm of world building and it's up to the DM. I have ritual casters in my world that can do amazing things given enough time but couldn't cast a magic missile with the snap of their fingers to safe their life. It will of course vary wildly depending on campaign and vision.

 

[Remathilis]

Narrative control. Learn to deal with it. Flavoring a plot coupon as a spell doesnt make it inherently more "realistic".

Again, how are we doing this?

If a fighter uses an ability that gives every other target but him disadvantage on attack rolls, I still get a choice; does this character attack the fighter with his normal attack odds OR go attack a more preferred target (like the squishy wizard) with a reduced chance of success and thus waste his action? Does the smooth-tongued rogue seduce the pious priestess into bed with a simple persuasion check? Would the wizard forsake all his magical range attacks to rush up and attack the heavily armed warrior with his quarterstaff because the warrior said nasty things about his momma? At least with magic, I can justify someone overriding my character's common sense, morality, ideals and personality traits in the same way people do when drugged or similar.

And to be fair, I don't really like charm magic either, for much the same reason. I don't like having control of my PCs or important NPCs taken from me. I accept it only slightly better because magic can do things that mundane things can't and override my character's actions is one. I'd rather not exacerbate by giving everyone the power to move other people's characters around.