D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Yaarel]

Woohoo! I finally read every post in this thread upto here!

 

[Remathilis]

He is the JLA version of Iron Man, but both remain super-heroes. Both are rich, have gadgets, etc. just like a fighter in D&D can be rich, have magic items, and still be awesomely trained in combat.

You say Artificer, which is fine, but I say Fighter (monk maybe?) with magic items... [emoji2369]

Either way Batman, like the fighter, isn't really winning those JLA-level fights without relying on "magic" (in Batman's case, technology, but Asimov had thoughts on sufficiently advanced technology). Batman basically has plot convenient magic items on demand. Now if the solution to fixing the caster/martial imbalance is plot convenient magic items on demand, then you've just created a wizard with extra steps.

I mean, I actually prefer this method to other ones people have suggested. If a high level fighter basically gets reskinned spells as "magic items" or even items that can't be lost, stolen or disenchanted (akin to how a wizard is dependent on a spell book) that at least feels consistent. I don't like a high level fighter pushing mountains out of the way with his bare hands because he killed enough bandits.

 

[Cadence]

He is the JLA version of Iron Man, but both remain super-heroes. Both are rich, have gadgets, etc. just like a fighter in D&D can be rich, have magic items, and still be awesomely trained in combat.

You say Artificer, which is fine, but I say Fighter (monk maybe?) with magic items...

It feels like they don't match up perfectly, and I think JLA/Avengers got it pretty right. For some roles Batman is Iron Man (money) and for others he is Captain America (combat). For some roles Captain America is Batman (combat) and for some he is Superman (symbolism, LG-ness).

 

[Lyxen]

Sage Advice says readied actions are part of your turn. Something that is part of your turn can only occur on your turn. It's a valid interpretation to say that ready interrupts the other turn and switches it back to yours until the readied action completes.

I think you have misunderstood something here. First, no, it's not a valid interpretation, as it's said nowhere in the rule that it does that. The rule only says, very clearly and specifically: "4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order." There is no other section in which turns are said to be interrupted or resumed or whatever.

Moreover, the SAC (I suppose this is what you are referring to when mentioning Sage Advice) says: "Can you use the Ready action to take the Dash action on someone else’s turn and then combine the Charger feat with it? No, since you can’t take a bonus action on someone else’s turn." So very clearly, the action that you ready occurs on someone else's turn.

 

[Maxperson]

I don’t quite agree. Whilst those characters are at the lower end of the superheroic, they still are clearly superheroes, capable of blatantly superhuman feats. I think the poll clearly shows that most people want high level fighters to be more than just normal people. And I think that’s encouraging.

Yep. My vote was in that category.

 

[FrozenNorth]

They can seek them out, but there is less than a handful that improve DC IIRC? So, IME a caster is lucky to run across one such item. But if you have a high-magic item style game that could certainly be different.

Aren’t those the exact items a caster will seek out, though? Also, Casters are often better positioned than non-casters to simply make the item themselves.

Sure, but DC 17 against a proficient save is barely 50/50. If the caster is +9, the target is likely +7 or better in proficient saves.

Not very hard for a caster to be able to attack 3 or 4 different saves. Also not very hard for a caster to either guess a non-proficient save or use their plentiful lore skills to learn one.

Agree! Other than helping their defense, most magic items are for casting more spells. While this increases the frequency of usefulness, it doesn't increase power IMO. Also, most spells that items can cast aren't of the real "game changing" nature since they aren't 6th+ level spells.

Disagree that spells of lower than 6th level aren’t game changers.

A 2nd level Web spell on a Fire Giant is almost a guarantee that he loses at least one turn (with a 45% chance that he loses more than one) against a creature that has a +7 Str!

Phantasmal Force would be even more effective and would absolutely wreck his day.

 

[Minigiant]

Wow! Really?

Umm... no, no thank you. That is so against D&D from the beginning IME and IMO that I can't even say any more about it.

It's not the fighter.

My point is it would be a totally separate class to handle demigods, half demons, half Giants, half vampires, alchemical soldiers, and chemically enhanced men.

Hercules, Achilles, Perseus, Gilgamesh, Blade, Alucard, Inuyasha, Steve Rogers, and TChalla should not be modelled with the same class as normal warriors of their race.

Superpowered humans need their own class.

 

[FrozenNorth]

If that is the issue with OP casters, don't hand them out. We find most such items pretty useless IME, but that is just my experience.

That’s kind of the issue.

First claim. Fighters are not hosed compared to casters.

1st retrenchment. Fighters are not hosed compared to casters if the DM is providing both parties with useful magical items.

2nd retrenchment. Fighters are not hosed compared to casters if the DM provides fighters with useful magical items and curates the magical items the casters receive.

3rd retrenchment. And also polices the encounter day so the caster runs out of slots.

4th retrenchment. And makes sure to curate encounters so the caster can’t shut them down with a single spell.

How many retrenchments before the clear conclusion that fighters are underpowered and wizards are overpowered.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

It's not the fighter.

My point is it would be a totally separate class to handle demigods, half demons, half Giants, half vampires, alchemical soldiers, and chemically enhanced men.

Hercules, Achilles, Perseus, Gilgamesh, Blade, Alucard, Inuyasha, Steve Rogers, and TChalla should not be modelled with the same class as normal warriors of their race.

Superpowered humans need their own class.

Or a paragon class, take the feat "Bitten by a radioactive wotsit" and off ya go.

 

[DND_Reborn]

You game just sounds entirely different from mine.

Aren’t those the exact items a caster will seek out, though? Also, Casters are often better positioned than non-casters to simply make the item themselves.

No, characters in my games don't seek out items in general, they find them by chance 90% of the time.

And they "make" items even less often. In any edition of D&D making magic items is really difficult IME.

Not very hard for a caster to be able to attack 3 or 4 different saves. Also not very hard for a caster to either guess a non-proficient save or use their plentiful lore skills to learn one.

No, it isn't hard, but they have to have the spells known or prepared to do it. It can certainly happen, but isn't an assumed.

Disagree that spells of lower than 6th level aren’t game changers.

A 2nd level Web spell on a Fire Giant is almost a guarantee that he loses at least one turn (with a 45% chance that he loses more than one) against a creature that has a +7 Str!

Phantasmal Force would be even more effective and would absolutely wreck his day.

One round delay for a 2nd level slot? Ok. Sold.

And those spells are not game changers in the way 6+ level spells are.

YMMV, of course, that is just my experience and I prefer not to debate opinions/experiences.