D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Oofta]

I get the impression you play with casters either purposefully holding back, or simply not imaginative beyond casting fireball and other blasting spells. Stuff like Find the Path is more or less "win exploration pillar".

Counterspell, antimagic zones, having combats in areas where fireball is ill advised may never happen in your game. Maybe you have a 5 minute work day where the casters can go nova every encounter. It's not an issue with the system.

As far as Find the Path? You have to be familiar with the location you are going to and have an object from the location. It also just tells you the shortest route, the route doesn't have to be safe.

 

[Maxperson]

becuse without magic the heroic champion is screwed

Nah. Stick a cleric, wizard, warlock, paladin, etc. in plate and have them swim and they're in the same boat(or out of it in this case). The cleric isn't likely to successfully cast breath water(if it's even prepared) while sinking.

 

[Umbran]

Lol. You realize fighters don't have infinite HP. Bounded accuracy will lay that fighter low quick with a bunch of crossbows. A wizard can easily kill a town if that's what they choose.

Um... those crossbowmen are also not a whole lot of fun for the wizard, either.

Sure, you can find a spell that'll protect them from the crossbows. Now the wizard always has to have that spell on hand

We can go through a lot of different fairly mundane ways to do damage to wizards, and folks will point out each time a spell or two that will protect them.

But then... the wizard is now loaded down with spells to save their bacon, and has to always keep the ability to cast them available... and they then can't really do much against the town.

This is the problem with individual hypotheticals - they sound convincing, but their limited and very specific scope don't actually predict much.

 

[HammerMan]

Look at the bigger picture. Sure that wizard just did a metric crapton of damage.....................in one fight. Then he lost 4-5 fireballs, which at 11th level, means that he is completely out of 3rd level slots and is down 1 or 2 4th level slots. The wizard has 4-6 more encounters to use spells in and he's used up 4-5 of his 9 3rd-6th level slots. Even if he uses his Arcane Recovery, if he continues at that pace there will be 3 or 4 encounters where he only has cantrips and very low level spells to use against CR 11+ encounters. The fighter? He's trucking along through all of those fights with his 3 attacks. It's going to even out.

at level 20 fireball 15 times +2 or 3 signiture spell... most adventures don't have adventure days that need more than 15 fireballs per day... but if you do you cann fall back to flame bolt most likelt + to hit equal ot better to the fighter and 4d10 damage... and that is NOT optimized in fact burning all your spells on fireball is dumb bad and still better then the fighter

 

[Oofta]

What about people who do have those issues? Should they not play D&D? Should they go to you on advise and guidance on how to play/run the game?

No, they should post a question on a helpful forum and explain the issues they're having and then actually listen to the advice.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Lol. You realize fighters don't have infinite HP. Bounded accuracy will lay that fighter low quick with a bunch of crossbows. A wizard can easily kill a town if that's what they choose. For that day. Then repick their superpowers after a nap to roflstomp the next purported challenge.

I've shown it in other threads and not about to dig for it, but with Survivor and self-healing, a fighter can literally kill hundreds, even thousands depending on the scenario, of "town guards" before dying.

And a wizard can't "kill a town" if they choose. A village maybe, but not a town. Sure, with Shapechange they can do a lot, so maybe a small town. I'm not saying a wizard can deal a crapload of damage, go away, and then come back after a short or long rest, but that is different. The fighter never has to leave really.

Oh, crap, you GOT ME talking about it! No more! Shame on me for falling for it...

 

[HammerMan]

This is the problem with individual hypotheticals - they sound convincing, but their limited and very specific scope don't actually predict much.

right but in general we can look at LOTs of choices for wizards, and few for fighters
some of the high level choices fall into the quote of "I cast shanaigans" for wizard and I have yet to see one for fighter

 

[Minigiant]

Making a new mythic hero class ala BO9S is the only way we'll get something acceptable. People are determined to keep the fighter a slightly tougher town guard for 20 levels.

Bo9S is not needed.

People just have to get it that you can't use the the same race/class system for someone of superhuman and peak human capabilities.

Ajax and Achilles either aren't the same class or you need to create a whole new racial paradigm.

You can't shove every swordsman into a single class with few moving pieces. If casters have dozens of spells to replicate tons of effects, then fighter needs dozens of options or you need to pull a barbarian/paladin/ranger and splinter off.

 

[HammerMan]

No, they should post a question on a helpful forum and explain the issues they're having and then actually listen to the advice.

okay I have players who want to play a martial non magic character that can effect the world and story in similar ways to casters of half there levels... how do I do that?

 

[DND_Reborn]

i am so lost... what are you saying?

LOL don't worry about it. My point was just if people are making those types of comparisons in your game, I understand why you have the view you do. I don't have the same types of issues with fighter-types (although I certainly have agreed there are some) because I don't see those sort of comparisons--to me they would be meaningless.