Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

[Ovinomancer]

Ever been told that what you're selling- something you bought for yourself- is stolen?

Ever been followed from the moment you entered a music store because they thought you were a shoplifter?

Ever been arrested coming out of a church where you had just been an altar server?

Ever been told you could not test drive a car?

Ever had someone assume you were an illegal immigrant despite being a 3rd generation American?

Ever had someone assume you were staff and not a customer?

Ever had someone ASTONISHED that you were articulate, well-informed or otherwise well-educated?

All of those happened to me or someone in my family.

The argument wasn't the racist s exist, though. It was the privilege theory is impervious to criticism.

 

[Umbran]

I rest my case.

That's a horribly weak resting place.

First off, your case is an absolute - *ANY* argument made against privilege by one who has it will be declared a proof privilege by the theory. The absolute there is the weak spot - so long as we find a single case in which that isn't done, your case goes down. But, that's the lesser issue, honestly, so let us let that issue of basic rhetoric slide.

More importantly, you have asserted any argument made against privilege by one who has it will be declared an example of privilege *BY THE THEORY*. As opposed to it being claimed as proof of privilege *BY THE PERSON ARGUING*. You effectively have made an argument against a faulty argument, not against the theory itself.

We can have an argument over the theory that the earth is basically round. If the side arguing for roundness does a really poor job, is that an indication that the world is flat? Reality is what it is, no matter how well we state our arguments about it.

Here's the thing - "privilege theory" as you call it, does not predict what you say. Privilege theory does predict that many who have privilege will be blind to it. That the privileged will argue against it is not really a thing of privilege theory, it is a practical result of general human psychology - whether you were blind to it or not, once you (generic, not you, Ovinomancer specifically) are told you are privileged, one will often reject it, as it implies there is some responsibility that you're not living up to some responsibility, and rather frequently folks are not willing to accept such.

So, those who are speaking about privilege should not argue that arguments against it are evidence of privilege. They are a matter of being human. In that, you have a point - folks who do this are being sloppy in their discussion. The existence of privilege can be demonstrated through sheer statistics, and the ad hominem of "Yeah, the privileged all react like that," isn't helpful or constructive.

 

[Ovinomancer]

That's a horribly weak resting place.

First off, your case is an absolute - *ANY* argument made against privilege by one who has it will be declared a proof privilege by the theory. The absolute there is the weak spot - so long as we find a single case in which that isn't done, your case goes down. But, that's the lesser issue, honestly, so let us let that issue of basic rhetoric slide.

More importantly, you have asserted any argument made against privilege by one who has it will be declared an example of privilege *BY THE THEORY*. As opposed to it being claimed as proof of privilege *BY THE PERSON ARGUING*. You effectively have made an argument against a faulty argument, not against the theory itself.

We can have an argument over the theory that the earth is basically round. If the side arguing for roundness does a really poor job, is that an indication that the world is flat? Reality is what it is, no matter how well we state our arguments about it.

Here's the thing - "privilege theory" as you call it, does not predict what you say. Privilege theory does predict that many who have privilege will be blind to it. That the privileged will argue against it is not really a thing of privilege theory, it is a practical result of general human psychology - whether you were blind to it or not, once you (generic, not you, Ovinomancer specifically) are told you are privileged, one will often reject it, as it implies there is some responsibility that you're not living up to some responsibility, and rather frequently folks are not willing to accept such.

So, those who are speaking about privilege should not argue that arguments against it are evidence of privilege. They are a matter of being human. In that, you have a point - folks who do this are being sloppy in their discussion. The existence of privilege can be demonstrated through sheer statistics, and the ad hominem of "Yeah, the privileged all react like that," isn't helpful or constructive.

No, the way the theory is constructed can easily be used to defend the theory against attacks by the privileged. That you can argue that it doesn't have to do that is somewhat immaterial if the overwhelming majority of privilege theory's application is exactly as I have characterized it. Further, you yourself used only one rational for argument against the theory by the so-called privileged -- that of human hubris. Hate to tell you, but that's exactly how privilege theory predicts the privileged will act, so that's a failed counter and further evidence that privilege theory is unassailable.

Whenever privilege theory is invoked, any argument against the validity of the theory is reacted to exactly as doctorbadwolf did:

That is nonsense, and you probably know it.

It can seem that way, because your privilege distorts your way of looking at the world around you, but things like white and male privilege are observably, provably extant circumstances, not theories. Well, not theories in the colloquial sense. Obviously, even many things we treat as scientific fundamentals are technically theories in the jargon science usage of the term.

He said that even thinking that it might be wrong is evidence that the theory is correct. Further, he said that the theory isn't really a theory, but more of a law, as it's clearly a scientific fundamental. How it accurately classified race or class, or what metric of privilege it uses to determine the relative level of privilege is unsaid and unsayable, but has the force of Science(tm) behind it, so questioning it is probably un-scientific as well as wrong to boot.

Privilege theory was born as one tool in a toolbox to help classify social interactions. It wasn't correct or incorrect, but it was occasionally useful. However, it's been entirely hijacked by people like doctorbadwolf, and as it's now used it's unassailable. In fact, any attempt to question it just leads to accusations of failure to understand.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Let me put it differently: simply put, things my Caucasian friends take for granted, I can't.

Whenever I go car shopping, there is an assumption that I don't have the money to buy a car at that dealership; that I don't belong. When I tried to buy my first car solo in the 1990s, I had $20k for a downpayment, and dressed as was typical of the preppy/yuppie types around the area. I was looking for something in the $30-45k range.

I shopped all the major makers, sometimes multiple dealerships by the same maker. Sometimes I took a white buddy with me. I was often ignored for 30min to an hour before anyone would talk to me. Many places refused me a test drive.

My buddy? HIM they talked to. Sometimes, if I walked in ahead of him, they'd walk past me to greet him.

When I finally got to test drive something I wanted and decided to buy it, the salesman assumed I had bad credit. He offered me a financing rate 3% higher than the loan my bank had already pre-approved me for. I asked him point-blank if he had checked with them, and he told me he had. I handed him a business card and told him to call back and talk to my banker, using my actual name.

This isn't one car buying trip. This is typical of every new car buying excursion my family has had for the past 20 years.. IOW, I cannot take for granted that I will be respected as a customer.

When my Dad was arrested coming out of church, the assumption was that an entire congregation of blacks saying he had just been an altar server for the past 90 minutes was lying to protect one of their own. Do you honestly think cops would arrest a white kid with a similar alibi? IOW, I cannot take for granted that my rights of liberty will be taken for granted.

When I went to a black tie event as the arm candy for an invitee friend of mine, I got out my tuxedo & my opal stud set. I was the only black guest there. Many guests- some who had ignored the black tie portion of the invite and got admitted anyway- assumed I was supervising the staff. IOW, I cannot take freedom of association for granted.

So, "White Privilege" isn't so much that people are going out of their way to give white people special treatment. It is that there are underlying unconscious cultural assumptions that blacks (and other minorities) are not solvent, educated, truthful, and generally don't belong.

See also "criming while white" on Twitter and Scalzi's blog:
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

 

[Eltab]

MY White Privilege card says "Irish need not apply".

Which points out that the modern problem is NOT somebody's 'privilege', it is a failure of cultural assimilation.
(Usually such 'privilege' is claimed - in accusation form - by somebody who thinks of himself as an outsider.)

 

[Ryujin]

Ever been told that what you're selling- something you bought for yourself- is stolen?

Ever been followed from the moment you entered a music store because they thought you were a shoplifter?

Ever been arrested coming out of a church where you had just been an altar server?

Ever been told you could not test drive a car?

Ever had someone assume you were an illegal immigrant despite being a 3rd generation American?

Ever had someone assume you were staff and not a customer?

Ever had someone ASTONISHED that you were articulate, well-informed or otherwise well-educated?

All of those happened to me or someone in my family.

Actually, as a late middle-aged white male, I can say that I've had more than half of those happen to me.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Actually, as a late middle-aged white male, I can say that I've had more than half of those happen to me.

To the Caucasian forumites who have responded likewise, I now ask: how often? Was it a singular event, or commonplace?

 

[Ryujin]

To the Caucasian forumites who have responded likewise, I now ask: how often? Was it a singular event, or commonplace?

But you didn't ask that and now you qualify

To put it simply, I do not deny that the racial bias exists. What I do say, is that anecdotal evidence is just as meaningless in such a debate as it is in any other. It's sloppy debate.

To answer this question when I was younger, say 20 years ago, I had exactly the same experience that you did in dealerships. I was routinely denied test drives and was ignored by salesmen. I was followed in stores. In one case I was derisively told when purchasing a motorcycle that my financing hadn't come through yet, by a snotty sales rep.. I dropped two credit cards on his desk and asked him to which he would prefer to charge the entire amount. That shut him up pretty quickly. These days at 5'9" and 190 pounds, sporting a shaved head and Van Dyke, I am still fairly routinely followed in stores. As to people being astonished that I'm articulate, I'm not particularly so. It's intelligence and knowledge that surprises them, rather than any native ability to relate such.

 

[Kramodlog]

The anecdote game is a bad one. Anyone can have a experience that does't fit with what should happen to someone who is privilege or not. Stats are more telling, as they represent odds of something happening and tendancies.

Odds are a black person will have a harder time finding housing than a white person. A white person doesn't need to be racist to benefit from that. Being white comes with the privilege of having less odds of being discriminated when looking for housing.

Odds are a black person will face jail time if he/she is found with marijuana on their person and that jail time will be longer. A white person has less odds of facing jail time they are found with pot on them, and if they end up in jail, odds are their time there will be shorter.

There are many more examples involving homosexuals, Asians, women, trans, Arabs...

White heterosexual males, just have more favorable odds, or less disfavorable odds, when it comes to a lot of things. Not everything, you can be a white man and still face discrimination, but being privileged does mean you will never face any.

One reason why there is so much push back is that odds and tendacies are rather abstract from an individual standpoint. Plus privilege is a terrible word. Try to say to a single white mother on welfare that she is privileged (compared to statistics of black women in a similar situation). A Frank Luntz would be needed to find a better word and concept, but he works for the Dark Side.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Odds are a black person will face jail time if he/she is found with marijuana on their person and that jail time will be longer. A white person has less odds of facing jail time they are found with pot on them, and if they end up in jail, odds are their time there will be shorter.

I have a cousin serving 30 years in Angola prison for his first offense, armed robbery. It is utterly undisputed by the prosecution that he was passed out cold in the getaway car when the robbery occurred, and had been for some time previous.

Under the law, persons who are co-conspirators can be given the same sentence as those who commit the crime in principal. However, that requires certain amounts of proof...including whether or not the co-conspirator was still a participant in the conspiracy.

One reason why there is so much push back is that odds and tendacies are rather abstract from an individual standpoint. Plus privilege is a terrible word. Try to say to a single white mother on welfare that she is privileged (compared to statistics of black women in a similar situation). A Frank Luntz would be needed to find a better word and concept, but he works for the Dark Side.

That was part of what Scalzi's point was. Being white doesn't guarantee a rosy future, it just shifts odds in your favor.