Christian Persecution vs Persecuted Christians

[Maxperson]

I am not sure that's really accurate, given how many people within their area of influence are attempting to flee.

If that number isn't 100%, and it's far from that, then they have a permanent population.

This seems highly debatable, on several levels. First, let us start with how they've declared their own statehood several different times, with different parameters, the most recent of which, technically, encompasses the entire planet. Making aggrandized and nonsensical claims like that weakens their claim on statehood, as it interferes with their ability to enter into relations with other states.

What they want doesn't matter. What matters are the borders they control, which are measurable.

Be that as it may, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) was declared a bit less than a year ago, and its borders have been in flux since that time, since they are actively at war, and battles that move their borders are on the order of 100 casualties (meaning, small). It is new and ever changing - that doesn't sound like well-defined territorial boundaries to me.

War doesn't stop statehood. If it did, then every time we had a house secede from the U.S., the U.S. would cease to be a state.

I question this as a requirement, insofar as it can be met by merely saying, "We have a government!" Any definition that can be met by 5-year-olds in a tree house probably isn't a solid definition.

ISIS is actually governing, building infrastructure and more. That can't be said by the children you describe. If ISIS isn't a government for doing what real governments do, then there are no governments in the world.

Can it, really? Name one other state with which is has formal relations - ambassadors and treaties. I don't think being sent a several million dollars by the Saudis in ways that allow the Saudis plausible deniability count as "relations". Nor do trade arrangements that would be called "smuggling" by the states through which goods pass - bribing border guards does not count as having "relations".

It doesn't matter if other states are receptive, or even if ISIS never attempts to form relations. It is capable of it, and that's what matters.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Can I ask why you guys are arguing over whether ISIS is a state or not? I'm just curious what point this is in service to. Is there a larger argument this is part of?

 

[Maxperson]

Can I ask why you guys are arguing over whether ISIS is a state or not? I'm just curious what point this is in service to. Is there a larger argument this is part of?

Morals of modern and ancient societies turned into whether ISIS counted as a society/state. Soon morals got left behind, as they often do

 

[Umbran]

What matters are the borders they control, which are measurable.

War doesn't stop statehood. If it did, then every time we had a house secede from the U.S., the U.S. would cease to be a state.

I think the case of an existing state and war of state formation are different cases.

Our own Revolution makes a good example here - with the Declaration of Independence, the colonies claimed the right to be separate States, the right to wage war, and all that. However, the authors of that document well knew that, should they lose the war, all that verbiage would be for naught, and they would hang as traitors, which implies that they didn't really have statehood. Real statehood came *after* the war, not before. And, within this, there is a major point - you keep dismissing the question of recognition and legitimization. Our Founding Fathers didn't - they recognized the need for other countries to view what they were doing as legal and legitimate.

Similarly, ISIS has been in an open state of war since its inception - its statehood will not be settled until *after* that war ends, not before.

ISIS is actually governing, building infrastructure and more. That can't be said by the children you describe.

Yes, but it can be said for any civil engineering firm in the world. The kids comment was about "have a government" - every bowling league has governance that arranges for the things the bowling leagues need. Doesn't make them states.

If ISIS isn't a government for doing what real governments do

Live in a state of perpetual war in which they kill their own nominal citizens more than they kill any enemies, you mean?

It doesn't matter if other states are receptive, or even if ISIS never attempts to form relations. It is capable of it, and that's what matters.

Your personal assertion means little. Proof is in the pudding, not in your words. They are capable when they demonstrate the capability, not when some guy on the internet says they can.

 

[Maxperson]

I think the case of an existing state and war of state formation are different cases.

Our own Revolution makes a good example here - with the Declaration of Independence, the colonies claimed the right to be separate States, the right to wage war, and all that. However, the authors of that document well knew that, should they lose the war, all that verbiage would be for naught, and they would hang as traitors, which implies that they didn't really have statehood. Real statehood came *after* the war, not before. And, within this, there is a major point - you keep dismissing the question of recognition and legitimization. Our Founding Fathers didn't - they recognized the need for other countries to view what they were doing as legal and legitimate.

Similarly, ISIS has been in an open state of war since its inception - its statehood will not be settled until *after* that war ends, not before.

I think that's a good point and I can definitely see that view. My personal view, though, is that the founding fathers understood that the victor writes the history. You win and history records you as a state from the moment the declaration was made. You lose and it doesn't. It's more retroactively undoing the statehood than not being a state in the first place.

Yes, but it can be said for any civil engineering firm in the world. The kids comment was about "have a government" - every bowling league has governance that arranges for the things the bowling leagues need. Doesn't make them states.

Bowling leagues and engineering firms don't collect taxes, build building, build roads, engage in trade, establish laws, maintain army, and so on.

Live in a state of perpetual war in which they kill their own nominal citizens more than they kill any enemies, you mean?

The U.S. has killed more than 600,000 Americans. Not sure how many total enemies we've killed, but that's still a hefty number of our own killed by our own hands.

Your personal assertion means little. Proof is in the pudding, not in your words. They are capable when they demonstrate the capability, not when some guy on the internet says they can.

Um, anyone can see that they are capable of calling someone an ambassador and sending that person to another country. Asking me to prove that is like asking me to prove that the Earth has water.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Morals of modern and ancient societies turned into whether ISIS counted as a society/state. Soon morals got left behind, as they often do

Why is morals of modern and ancient society being discussed?

 

[Maxperson]

Why is morals of modern and ancient society being discussed?

Because we were discussing the murder of Americans by Obama drone. If you want to know how that came about, you'll have to go look. The discussion has taken many turns.

 

[Orlax]

I think that's a good point and I can definitely see that view. My personal view, though, is that the founding fathers understood that the victor writes the history. You win and history records you as a state from the moment the declaration was made. You lose and it doesn't. It's more retroactively undoing the statehood than not being a state in the first place.



Bowling leagues and engineering firms don't collect taxes, build building, build roads, engage in trade, establish laws, maintain army, and so on.



The U.S. has killed more than 600,000 Americans. Not sure how many total enemies we've killed, but that's still a hefty number of our own killed by our own hands.



Um, anyone can see that they are capable of calling someone an ambassador and sending that person to another country. Asking me to prove that is like asking me to prove that the Earth has water.

Bowling leagues entirely collect taxes, engage in trade and establish laws. Dues, jersey's, and bylaws, that's how being in a league works. Engineering firms actually do a lot of the same things. By your definitions large corporations are sovriegn states, which they currently are not.

 

[Maxperson]

Bowling leagues entirely collect taxes, engage in trade and establish laws. Dues, jersey's, and bylaws, that's how being in a league works. Engineering firms actually do a lot of the same things. By your definitions large corporations are sovriegn states, which they currently are not.

They are forbidden by law and the Constitution to collect taxes and establish laws. They can make rules. Rules and bylaws are not laws, despite the name. They can collect money. Dues are not taxes.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Because we were discussing the murder of Americans by Obama drone. If you want to know how that came about, you'll have to go look. The discussion has taken many turns.

It is a long thread. I am not going to be able to sift through that. I am just curious what the general thrust of each side is here. Are people saying that Obama killing Americans who are participating in Jihad in the middle east is equivalent to ISIS murdering people for people homosexual, getting drunk or being an apostate?