D&D 5E (2024) Circle Casting is gonna break a lot of games

[EzekielRaiden]

Do I really have to get the receipts?

You started responding to my posts here, where I had been talking to Horwarth, who had a very bold statement that I tried to give more nuance.

Yes, of course a game needs balance, and it is important that people test the game for that, and that those results are considered by the game designers to improve the game for their target audience. And yes games need depth.

I don't think we disagree anyway. You are having an argument with someone else who's not here, I think. Can you stop?

Alright. Your position absolutely came across as "anyone who listens to people who really try to test the rules is wrong". That's a position I've been resisting for nigh on 15 years at this point, and I gotta say, I'm not particularly keen on it.

It was a bare half-step from throwing around That Phrase that I hate so much. The one about pale chambers.

 

[mellored]

Extend is capped at 24hrs

so what about Prolong for 8 hours + Extend.
Is that 16 hours?

 

[Horwath]

so what about Prolong for 8 hours + Extend.
Is that 16 hours?

I would say yes.
that is a cheap way to get the (almost) whole day covered.

 

[mellored]

I would say yes.
that is a cheap way to get the (almost) whole day covered.

Or cast before a long rest and make sure do your combats in the morning.

Possibly cast before a short rest if you have a Warlock / Sorlock

 

[Horwath]

Or cast before a long rest and make sure do your combats in the morning.

if there is no Conc, or you are elf/warforged.

Possibly cast before a short rest if you have a Warlock / Sorlock

is there any doubt?

 

[Sacrosanct]

Here is the math using example your cherry picked example and set up that was changed to 5th level and assuming you don't lose concentration on the casting and assuming initiative is you then the fighter, then the Hobgoblins (best case):

1. You and the fighter cast spirit guardians. Those hobgoblins need a 15 to save and it does 11.4 damage to each on the fighters turn - 22.8 damage on average using 2 actions, a 1st level slot and a 3rd level slot. It does this on the fighters turn, assuming you hold onto the concentration the whole time.

2. You cast a normal "little" spirit guardians alone and the fighter uses multiattack
Your spirit guardians comes up on your turn. On the fighters turn he uses multiattack and tactical shift. Using a relatively weak DPR build, an attack action with a 1d8 weapon, dueling and push (pushing them into your little spirit guardians), you do an average of 24.35 damage. This uses 1 3rd level spell slot and 1 use of second wind.

I see you still are ignoring how SG does damage over time, and to multiple targets. And now suddenly are factoring in saves but aren't factoring in attack roll misses. Interesting...

So with your cherry picked set up and assuming the best possible initiative order, and no concentration checks during the casting the MATH shows you use more resources and do less damage on average than just casting a smaller spirit guardians and attacking.

This isn't a gotcha moment, it is illustrating the shortfalls in play.

This isn't a cherry picked example. This is a common encounter type. The only thing that makes it uncommon was that I only had 2 PCs in that example instead of the typical 4-6. Which actually works in your favor, because with more PCs, the hobgoblins wouldn't be able to bum rush the cleric. Also of important note, with an extended radius, the cleric doesn't need to be as close to the front line, thus making concentration checks easier. But even with my intentionally handicapping myself with only 2 PCs, it still does better.

I said 3 rounds and that is from this board and this thread:

Z

D&D 5E (2014) Thread 'How many rounds do most of your combats last?'

May 12, 2020

I know they don't all last the same, but I'm curious if many combats go past round 5.....This isn't for a research paper, just go with your gut.

thanks!

• Zaukrie
• Replies: 93
• Forum: *Dungeons & Dragons

You can't prove that it is as long as you claim, nor that it will last multiple rounds, especially considering concentration.

So you accused me of cherry picking, then literally had to ignore several of the links (literally every other one) I provided to find one that supported you? That's rich. Also doesn't prove your claim.

So most of the time SG does not make it past ONE round using your cherry picked example and it is very rare that it will last 3 rounds!

This is not true at all, but another assumption. I said earlier about the red flags. You seem to be doubling down on that. So please consider this my last response. I will no longer be replying to you.

 

[SkidAce]

This all just cements my determination to follow the new Forgotten Realms GM advice and keep levelled Class characters a rarity.

Eg, there may be a priest in every town, village and neighborhood, but an actual Cleric is rare. There may be a minor spellcaster with cantrips here and there, but actual Wizards and Sorcerors are scarce and legendary.

It might go against some portrayals of the Forgotten Realms, but I like it better this way.

My home campaign has always been that way.

 

[SkidAce]

...This means for the cost of a 1-level dip in any casting class, all of your otherwise Martial characters can also hold concentration on spells, so you could for example Haste all of your martials and have them each hold the concentration for their own instance of Haste, and you’d still have your own concentration slot available for something else.
...

This does seem like something a mystical order would do.

 

[SkidAce]

Druid: I like call lighting, but aura of vitality would sure be helpful, but both are concentration.
Warlock: Hey, I've used my 2 slots already. I'll help and maintain call lightning while you go ahead and maintain aura of vitality

Eldritch Knight: Hey cleric, I will maintain spirit guardians for you while you do blade barrier. Deal?

This seems obvious to me how these things (and I'm just using the concentration rule here and not even mentioning the others) dramatically and completely change the encounter. A class like the warlock built around few spells and short rest recharge is now for all intents and purposes, doing spells beyond their limited slots. An eldritch knight with low level spell options is now effectively doing high level spells in addition to their core fighting ability.

Yup, I'm going to require casters to be trained (a feat) in this esoteric arcane ability to participate.

 

[Clint_L]

Yup, I'm going to require casters to be trained (a feat) in this esoteric arcane ability to participate.

But that example is a REALLY inefficient use of their resources. If players are making those choices, the only way circle casting will "break" games is by making combats a lot harder on players who can't math.