Clarifying the Prestige Class Concept (something WotC should have done with the rev.)

[Gez]

I think the only real problem of Prestige Classes is that they're poorly defined.

As a result, some people will blame the Eldritch Knight or Mystic Theurge for being unflavored, while other will blame the Assassin for being not-generic.

There's really three distinct kind of classes lumped together as PrC, only one of them being Prestige Classes.

1° Prestige classes. These classes you enter in when you are an elite member of an organisation.

2° Specialisation classes. These classes you enter in when you narrow your field of interest and development. Transcendant classes (that turns you into something else, like dragon disciple) are a subset of that category, since they are often associated one with the other (example: alienist is both a specialisation and a transcendance).

3° Hybrid classes. These classes you enter in only mechanically speaking, since they are just patch to cover up the shortcomings of multiclassing.


I'll categorize the classes from the DMG in these three categories.

Prestige Classes

• Arcane Archer
• Assassin
• Dwarven Defender
• Shadowdancer

Specialised Classes

• Archmage
• Blackguard
• Dragon Disciple
• Duelist
• Hierophant
• Horizon Walker
• Loremaster
• Thaumaturgist

Hybrid Classes

• Arcane Trickster
• Eldritch Knight
• Mystic Theurge

 

[shilsen]

Good point.

I think a lot of the disagreements about prestige classes and the dislike people have for them has to do with the semantic reactions to the word "prestige" and the different expectations people have of the concept. All Prestige Classes aren't meant to be prestigious, despite the name.

 

[Cedric]

I actually kind of wish they would implement a rule making it such that you can only take a limited number of prestige classes. Now a lot of people house rule this (my house rule limit is one 10 level PrC and one 5 level PrC per character).

But implementing something like that would be tough in a lot of cases and might turn out to be more trouble then it's worth.

Cedric

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Note that "organization" can also be a race. Arcane Archers and Dwarven defenders (and dozens of other examples) fit into that.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I have a personal limit that says once I start taking any sort of Prestige Class, I'll see it through to the end. I am very strongly against the sort of mindset that takes 2 levels in 3 different PrC's because of some sort of weird synergy benefit they get from it.

However, once you've finished a PrC, I see no reason why you can't take up another one.

 

[maddman75]

I've turned into a real hardliner about this. IMC, I have no patience for or interest in PrCs for merely mechanical advantages. Those don't exist. I don't let players just take whatever class they dig out of a splatbook.

First, I have to approve the class. If there's something I don't like about it either mechanically or flavor-wise, I'll change it. If it's too far gone, I'll ban it. But I do want to let the PC play the character he wants to play, so long as it will make sense in my world I'll find a way to fit it in.

Second, there's more to it than just taking levels in a class. You have to find the members of the organization, guild, brotherhood, or what have you. There are NO classes that are independant of training. Some may be formal schools, or may work on a master/apprentice arrangement. You have to convince them to let you join.

Finally, there's going to be both advantages and drawbacks from the organization. However, I'm a lot less stringent about the mechanical requirements. I mean if your PC has joined the ranks of the Brotherhood of the Lance, passed their trials, and earned their trust, as well as spent a month of intensive training at their fortress, I'm not going to keep you out of the class because you forgot to waste a feat on Endurance last level.

As an example, one of my PCs expressed an interest in Arcane Trickster. His halfling wiz/rog wanted to go that route eventually. So I worked in a subplot of a cabal of halfling mages that were courting him, trying to influence their human lords from behind the scenes. This 'halfling illuminati' became a fun part of the campaign world, and is much more interesting than listing some abilities on your character sheet.

 

[Wombat]

For my campaigns I come up with a very, VERY short list of acceptable PrCs.

That is it, all of them, barring a major logical argument.

The "Hybrid" classes are the first to go -- if you can do more or less the same thing just by melding two classes, you do it that way. The "Specialized" had better be interesting and fit into the flavour of my campaign, otherwise out they go. The "Elite Organization" PrCs are the most common ones for me, each organization having an agenda that you agree to when you take the PrC -- you are now part of a larger organization and must follow its dictates or be dropped.

For my current campaign we have, if I remember right, about 12 PrCs and only one player has shown a real interest in joining one; none of my players has asked me to expand the list (well, as seriously asked me to expand the list ... there was the one guy who wanted to be a Flaming Drow Poodlemancer, but that's another story...).

 

[jmucchiello]

I've turned into a real hardliner about this. IMC, I have no patience for or interest in PrCs for merely mechanical advantages. Those don't exist. I don't let players just take whatever class they dig out of a splatbook.

And so if someone says they want to be a martial artist type of character, you don't let them take levels in Monk because, it gives them a mechanical advantage? Isn't a Paladin just a character with like 70% fighter, 30% cleric? Plus he gets these twinky saving throw bonuses? Isn't a bard just Sorcerer/Rogue multiclass with bonus feats that grant bardic music abilities?

I'll never understand why people complain about PrCs that grant new character abilities at the expense of losing other abilities. Just because people have released bad prestige classes before doesn't mean that good ones don't exist. I just wish the word prestige had not been used to describe them. They should be called Restricted Access Classes. Then no one would care if they had flavor or not. Only their balance would matter.

 

[Storminator]

I actually kind of wish they would implement a rule making it such that you can only take a limited number of prestige classes. Now a lot of people house rule this (my house rule limit is one 10 level PrC and one 5 level PrC per character).

But implementing something like that would be tough in a lot of cases and might turn out to be more trouble then it's worth.

Cedric

I think there should be greater drawbacks for entering a prestige class. I think all full spellcasting prestige classes shouldn't have +1 spell casting at first level. Then you'd have to REALLY want it to take the class, and you wouldn't take too many. Similarly, all full BAB classes shouldn't have +1 BAB at first level.

If you add in those two restrictions, a lot of the multiple PrCing goes away by itself. I'm not sure what I would do about the EK. It's kind of a weird case.

PS

 

[Klaus]

Having designed quite a few PrClasses myself, I am all for flavor. I developed a simple system for determining the average power of a PrClass.

Take the Eldritch Knight, for instance. It's a Fighter/Wizard-type of class, right? So I put up a table with ten levels, 5 of fighter alternating with five of wizard. This proto-class gives you, over the course of 10 levels:

+7 BAB (same as a cleric, so average)
+5 spellcasting levels
3 bonus fighter feats
Kinda-good (couple of points short) Fort and Will saves. Reflex is definitely poor.
Scribe Scroll and one bonus wizard feat
familiar that increases in power
Average of "d7" Hit Dice
2 skill points per level.
Proficiency in all weapons, armor and shields.

That's for a proto-class that has NO requirements. A Prestige Class with requirements (that should be based on choice, not falling-into) has to be better than this proto-class in almost all cases. The Eldricth Knight offers:

+10 BAB
+9 spellcasting levels
Good Fort and Will
One bonus fighter feat
No familiar increase
d6 Hit Dice
2 skill points per level

Which one is more attractive?

I'm planning on putting up my Elven Battledance class at the Fiery Dragon website as a result of this type of experimentation.