Clark Peterson on 4E

[AllisterH]

As the original person who used the "crusty" comment, I do think Orcus did come across as "ignorant" about anime.

Take Record of Lodoss Wars for example. There's a reason why many D&D/anime fans consider it the greatest D&D adaptation and that's old school D&D.

Yet, Orcus and his supporters are stating "oh no, we don't want that type of gaming" when they say D&D has become too anime.

Sorry, but I'm still stunned that D&D players can hold their noses up in the air about anime.....geez, there's like almost 50/50 breakdown of boys and girls in anime communities and this is what D&D fans are holding their noses against?

 

[Halivar]

geez, there's like almost 50/50 breakdown of boys and girls in anime communities and this is what D&D fans are holding their noses against?

LOL, I'm sorry, but speaking as someone who has loved and cherished anime since Robotech first aired in the states in '85, I think you're being too generous. I know one girl who is a gamer, and that's one more than any female anime fans I know.

That said, I don't think Clark would have a problem with RoLW, which is almost 100% OD&D flavored. Perhaps he has more of a beef with the "kiddie" (as in, it was made, specifically, for children) anime like DBZ and Naruto with "WOW K3WL POWERZ!!11!one!1!eleven!" I sometimes game with people who are strongly influenced by this genre, and I must admit it can negatively impact the game... for me.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Is this thread for real? Let me get this straight, (1) some dude on the Internet goes to his own message boards (where presumably people who like to buy his stuff hang out) and says "You know, this game some other company published is pretty cool, but it really isn't my favorite flavor. I think I can take some of its innovations and make a better game that." and (2) people here jump up and down on his head shouting "You think my taste in games suck, do you? Well you suck!"

Jeez people, chill. 4E has "good engineering" (the game works, functionally), so whether or not 4E is any "good" is clearly a subjective opinion. If Clark said he didn't like chocolate ice cream (and you did), would you get this upset? I hope not.

 

[Irda Ranger]

That said, I don't think Clark would have a problem with RoLW, which is almost 100% OD&D flavored. Perhaps he has more of a beef with the "kiddie" (as in, it was made, specifically, for children) anime like DBZ and Naruto with "WOW K3WL POWERZ!!11!one!1!eleven!" I sometimes game with people who are strongly influenced by this genre, and I must admit it can negatively impact the game... for me.

Agreed (once I googled what the heck RotLW was supposed to be and figured out what you were talking about). I think a lot of people looking for the "old school" feel would say that RotLW "is" D&D, and that Naruto or Final Fantasy "are not" D&D because of the powers. By that definition, 4E is not D&D.

Not sayin' whether I agree with that or not, just that I see where they're coming from.

 

[I'm A Banana]

That said, I don't think Clark would have a problem with RoLW, which is almost 100% OD&D flavored. Perhaps he has more of a beef with the "kiddie" (as in, it was made, specifically, for children) anime like DBZ and Naruto with "WOW K3WL POWERZ!!11!one!1!eleven!" I sometimes game with people who are strongly influenced by this genre, and I must admit it can negatively impact the game... for me.

Well, he said it was because of "powerful abilities," which I can see. 4e has jettisoned the "mundane tier," so even 1st level PC's are several cuts above the typical townsfolk, much like how a lot of anime-style characters start off by being incredibly powerful with no one being able to challenge them.

D&D has, for a long time, had the feeling of going from dirt to going to godhood, and 4e has shouldered aside both sides of that continuum in favor of 30 levels of "better than anyone who isn't someone you're fighting, whom you will probably be on par with." Not that it was exactly a big leap to make, just that it is much more designed into the system than it was before (especially in 1e).

I know one girl who is a gamer, and that's one more than any female anime fans I know.

That's a shame. I know FAR MORE female anime fans than I know male anime fans. And most of those I know like to dress up in skimpy costumes and parade around for my enjoyment.

I'm gonna go thank Satan for that little pleasure RIGHT NOW!

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Is this thread for real? Let me get this straight, (1) some dude on the Internet goes to his own message boards (where presumably people who like to buy his stuff hang out) and says "You know, this game some other company published is pretty cool, but it really isn't my favorite flavor. I think I can take some of its innovations and make a better game that." and (2) people here jump up and down on his head shouting "You think my taste in games suck, do you? Well you suck!"

Jeez people, chill. 4E has "good engineering" (the game works, functionally), so whether or not 4E is any "good" is clearly a subjective opinion. If Clark said he didn't like chocolate ice cream (and you did), would you get this upset? I hope not.

Yes, this thread is real. I think the true question is - is that surprising? There are people here who take any criticism of 4e, no matter how far fetched it may be to stretch it into a criticism, as a personal attack against themselves.

Like I said earlier in this thread, the speed at which people who were praising Clark's name spun around to attack him is, well, kinda hilarious.

 

[Treebore]

D&D is not a Platonic ideal. Gary might be dead but he's not a god. The 3.5 books are not the Holy Bible, nor is the original Brown Box the Ark of the Covenant. They are games. They are fun and interesting games, but that is all that they are. They can - and should - be revised, altered and reinterpreted. They should be revisited and changed.

You do realize "They can - and should - be revised, altered and reinterpreted. They should be revisited and changed." is restating something Gary said many, many, many times, including in the rule books, not to mention in his forum posts.

Plus, reading from your other posts you need to re read what Clark posted with a clear mind, because you are now putting words into Clark's mouth that have nothing to do with what he meant.

 

[Halivar]

Not sayin' whether I agree with that or not, just that I see where they're coming from.

I understand, also. I simply disagree. The warrior daily power "Brute Strike" is not a "K3WL POWERZ!!11!one!1!eleven!" (henceforth abbreviated to KP so I don't have to type it out anymore) in the sense that I understand it from KP anime. To that degree, I think the term "power" was... unfortunate. "Exploit" is a much better term, with fewer negative cannotations.

What I want to know is why no one ever had a problem with this mechanic when it was used for 3.5E barbarians (rage), paladins (smite), samurai (kiai smite), bards (inspire), etc. There is nothing new about these mechanics. I gotta stess that: there is nothing new about powers. You always had them (unless you were a fighter).

 

[cougent]

Let me offer something new to the discussion, I am one of those who has NOT played 4E, yet. I read through the PH and as I said earlier I did not have a negative (or hater) response to it, but it did not grab me (or make me fall in love either). A friend asked me if I would play if he started a group and I said yes, but so far that has not happened. Neither have I gone searching for a 4E group because of my initial reaction.

I understand what Clark is talking about because that was my initial reaction to 3E as well. It sort of seemed like D&D, but not. After some adjusting of the core mechanics for 3E, I became very comfortable with the game and truly considered it "Real D&D", but with new things in it that were not in AD&D. I had some of my old players that I had DM'ed 10 years earlier tell me that I ran 3E in a 1E fashion, and I agreed with them. I warned potential new players that my style was very different and unconventional, and most of them (younger who had never played AD&D) found it very interesting and fun... different, but fun. A few did not and we mutually agreed they would do better in other more conventional 3E games, and we parted amicably.

So when I hear Clark say that he wants to "1E-ize 4E" [my term] then my response is WAHOO! I don't see how that in any way (should) threaten anyone who is currently playing and loving 4E. I mean we are talking about expanding the pie, not carving it up even smaller. Notice above I said I have "read" the PH, not bought. If Clark writes something that brings me into his version of "Real D&D 4E" then I will buy the core books even though I plan on altering them. However if he (or others) do not write something that gives me the personal "wow, I gotta have this" factor then I will not be buying anything 4E related. I apologize to the hard working writers at WotC who spent a great deal of effort on the product, but it just did not wow me, and there are alternatives out there that do.

In regards to the "soul" of D&D, or "doing it right" I think everyone should just take that with a grain of salt. I have never met another DM yet who did it exactly the same way I do... and yet the silly fools think they are ALL "doing it right". If they would just bother to ask, I could assure them they are all doing it wrong, because only I do it right!

 

[scruffygrognard]

So when I hear Clark say that he wants to "1E-ize 4E" [my term] then my response is WAHOO! I don't see how that in any way (should) threaten anyone who is currently playing and loving 4E. I mean we are talking about expanding the pie, not carving it up even smaller. Notice above I said I have "read" the PH, not bought. If Clark writes something that brings me into his version of "Real D&D 4E" then I will buy the core books even though I plan on altering them. However if he (or others) do not write something that gives me the personal "wow, I gotta have this" factor then I will not be buying anything 4E related. I apologize to the hard working writers at WotC who spent a great deal of effort on the product, but it just did not wow me, and there are alternatives out there that do.

That's EXACTLY where I stand. I've read the PHB and played a few sample games but have zero interest in buying 4th edition books.
WotC would benefit (as far as I'm involved) if Clark came up with something that somehow made 4th edition "feel" like D&D to me. I have money that wants to burn a hole in my pocket but nowhere to go (Pathfinder isn't tickling my fancy and I have almost every AD&D, 3rd edition D&D and Castles and Crusades book that I need to run a game).