Class Books: How would you do them?

[Quinn]

I don't really need tips on building effective characters, per se. This may be something suited for beginners, but even then, I wonder about the actual need for such sections. It almost always is the least interesting part of the book for me.

I like having new feats, and I like having new prestige classes. I wonder about playtesting, though. I have no insight into how well they are tested, but sometimes I wonder if any were tested at all. I'd much rather have 4 or 5 solid, very different or original prestige classes in a class book than 20 prestige classes of varying quality. I think a section on how to design prestige classes for the various character types may be more useful in a class book than the DMG alone. For example, instead of giving us 5 PrC's which each focus on fighters using a specialized type of weapon (The Lasher, Master of Chains, Weaponmaster, etc.), why not show DMs how to build a weapon-specialized fighter with a step by step process or something along those lines.

New equipment, spells, magic items, etc. are great as well. Rules on creating new spells, or a new weapon would be even better.

 

[DDK]

I think a section on how to design prestige classes for the various character types may be more useful in a class book than the DMG alone. For example, instead of giving us 5 PrC's which each focus on fighters using a specialized type of weapon (The Lasher, Master of Chains, Weaponmaster, etc.), why not show DMs how to build a weapon-specialized fighter with a step by step process or something along those lines.

As I understand it, some of this is going to be addressed in the revised DMG.

 

[johnsemlak]

this may not be a good idea fro a class book until 3.5 e is out, but I'd like to see more of what Monte COok put out in the way of variant core classes.

He gave variant Ranger, Bard, and Paladin classes.

I'd like to see a lot more variant core classes so that DMs could choose ones that best fit the 'feel' for their campaign.

 

[tabrumj]

Hmm, if I was going to do this I would:

1) Strongly tie the book to a setting. Show how that class fits in with the setting itself and what kinds of things they do. I get really tired of books that advice so generic that it is basically useless. i.e The fighter should charge into battle and protect the wizard. Duh.

2) Include new feats. Not just ones that are more powerfull than ones already out there. Instead include feats that give PC's of that type more options in how to play their character.

3) Include new optional rules. Giving PC's more options is usually a good thing.

4) Include prestige classes that are tied to a setting. Give me a class that I want to play not because it's so darn powerfull but because the role it fills is cool. Oh yeah, a prestige class should not be more powerfull than the base class. Instead it should do one thing much better than it's base class and not gain a lot of the other benefits that a normal class would gain. Think a Red Wizard from FRCS or the Liliandelli from Hornsaw. Not the Virtuoso from Song and Silence, or the Order of the Bow Inititate.

5. Include new equipment and magic items. These are always fun. But for the love of God don't give me items that invalidate previous items. A fun new polearm is okay, something like a mercurial greatsword is just broken.

6. As many other people have said, always remember that these books are for PC's stuff that is only viable in the hands of an NPC is not that usefull to players buying the book.

Of course this is just a little bit of what I would want out of a book like this.

 

[John Crichton]

this may not be a good idea fro a class book until 3.5 e is out, but I'd like to see more of what Monte COok put out in the way of variant core classes.

He gave variant Ranger, Bard, and Paladin classes.

I'd like to see a lot more variant core classes so that DMs could choose ones that best fit the 'feel' for their campaign.

Hey, don't forget sorcerer. His alt wasn't perfect but I thought is was more distinguished from mages the way he did it. That's just my take.

And for PrC's, Fourecks has it right. The new DMG will give more pointers on PrC's and how to make and use them in campaigns. I'm still not a huge fan of them. I think they work, but as mentioned I think the playtesting is an issue. I like the Star Wars PrC much better maybe because I understand what they are going for more clearly. Most of the PrC's for D&D that I have seen are more limiting that anything. I like a few campaign specific ones here and there, but then again there is the issue of creating your own. Generalized PrC's can be good but I'd like to have the option of tweaking the core classes with some solid examples.

 

[Quinn]

As I understand it, some of this is going to be addressed in the revised DMG.

True, and I'm glad they're doing it. There's a lot of information out there on building good prestige classes, but I think it would've been cool to do it with the class books. I'm really thinking in the past. So many class books are out there now that I can just pick and choose what I like. But if I were magically in charge of development at WotC or some other game company and had the chance to go back in time, that's kind of how I'd like to go about the class books.

 

[Knightfall]

Ch 5: Non-Adventuring characters - tell me about the high ranking church officials. Things that I can want for my character after he retires.

Ch 6: Example Characters - bunch of full fledged NPCs of this class of different levels with a rich background and complete stat block.

Now there are a couple of good ideas to include in a class book. But in a way I'd go more towards this and less new classes, feat and prestige classes.

These sourcebooks should be class compendium books... not class splatbooks, IMO.

Full blown generic, example NPCs. Do it like a FULL monster manual entry (maybe even two pages). You know, like the old Rogue's Gallery supplement from TSR but way better.

You'd have a single book for fighters, barbarians & monks, a book for bards & rogues, a book for sorcerers & wizards, a book for druids and rangers, a book for clerics & paladins and another for psions & psychic warriors.

* Include signature weapons, armor, equipment, spells for wizards, bards etc., and magic items.
* Include detailed stats for companions: cohorts, familiars, mounts, animal companions, etc.
* Include specific tactics for each NPC including their companions.
* Possible organizations that the NPC may be allied with (or against) or be a member of himself/herself.
* Detailed history of the NPC including motivations and personality traits.
* How to adapt the NPC as a new PC into your campaign. A paragraph detailing what type of party the character would be best suited to join.

Stuff like that...

Of course, if one of these new NPCs has a specific prestige class or something else 'crunchy', so much the better (included at the end of the book). But DON'T overdo the crunch.

Cheers!

KF72

 

[Nightfall]

Hmm, if I was going to do this I would:

1) Strongly tie the book to a setting. Show how that class fits in with the setting itself and what kinds of things they do. I get really tired of books that advice so generic that it is basically useless. i.e The fighter should charge into battle and protect the wizard. Duh.

2) Include new feats. Not just ones that are more powerfull than ones already out there. Instead include feats that give PC's of that type more options in how to play their character.

3) Include new optional rules. Giving PC's more options is usually a good thing.

4) Include prestige classes that are tied to a setting. Give me a class that I want to play not because it's so darn powerfull but because the role it fills is cool. Oh yeah, a prestige class should not be more powerfull than the base class. Instead it should do one thing much better than it's base class and not gain a lot of the other benefits that a normal class would gain. Think a Red Wizard from FRCS or the Liliandelli from Hornsaw. Not the Virtuoso from Song and Silence, or the Order of the Bow Inititate.

5. Include new equipment and magic items. These are always fun. But for the love of God don't give me items that invalidate previous items. A fun new polearm is okay, something like a mercurial greatsword is just broken.

6. As many other people have said, always remember that these books are for PC's stuff that is only viable in the hands of an NPC is not that usefull to players buying the book.

Of course this is just a little bit of what I would want out of a book like this.

Say didn't you something like this Jeff just recently?

 

[DDK]

Knightfall, I agree with a lot of what you posited however whilst reading it occured to me that there seems to be a split down the middle over who these books should target.

On the one hand, I see a lot of people calling for stuff that is useful to them as a player and deriding stuff that is only useful for NPC's.

OTOH, I see many people calling for stuff that would be useful to a DM.

On reflection, I think the splatbooks have tried to target both market sectors (I consider PrC's to be marketed towards players rather than DM's, as they should be).

I wonder if a book can win on both counts.

 

[Knightfall]

Knightfall, I agree with a lot of what you posited however whilst reading it occured to me that there seems to be a split down the middle over who these books should target.

On the one hand, I see a lot of people calling for stuff that is useful to them as a player and deriding stuff that is only useful for NPC's.

OTOH, I see many people calling for stuff that would be useful to a DM.

On reflection, I think the splatbooks have tried to target both market sectors (I consider PrC's to be marketed towards players rather than DM's, as they should be).

I wonder if a book can win on both counts.

The splatbooks, IMO, did try to appeal to both players and DMs. But they (WotC) did a rotten job of it. The Path books by FFG are WAY better and gives sample NPCs and organizations for each Prestige Class idea. What I want is a company to take it to the next level.

Detailed NPCs whether they be straight fighters or wizards, or multiclassed characters or characters multiclassed into the basic OGL prestige classes. Each character would have a sidebar showing you (the player or the DM) how to create characters similar to the one presented. Each character would be an archtypical character.

Warriors
* The Fallen Paladin
* The Archer
* The Savage Warrior
* The Swashbuckler
* The Religous Fanatic

Bards
* The Dandy
* The Minstrel

Arcane Spellcasters
* The Hedge Wizard
* The Archmage
* The Dragonblooded

Clerics
* The Loyal Acolyte
* The Patriarch

Rogues
* The Catburglar
* The Pickpocket
* The Fence

etc., etc., etc.

Basically, each character would be an example of a blueprint of how to create characters that fall into one of these categories, yet be different every time.

Or in other words, you might want your own catburgler instead of the one described in the book. Or maybe you want to combine archtypes. A catburgler who is a religious fanatic.

This is what I want!

KF72

{EDIT}

And you wouldn't neccasarily need PrCs for each archtype. Jsut use the basis character classes and use skills, feats and equipment to build what you need. Of course, some new PrCs would be nice. But like I said before, Not So Much Crunch!