Class Compendium: The Warlord (Marshal)

[kaomera]

There ARE people who want martial classes to pull away from dailies and such.

OK, I'll take your word for it. But given that I can't say that I've actually seen one (or maybe I have and have just ignored them?) I'm hoping that they aren't likely to be seen as a popular mandate. In fact, WotC, if you're listening? If the idea behind classes like the Slayer and Scout (besides being awesome) is simplicity, you should consider than the best support they can get is not to have a million new options published for them.

 

[Aegeri]

You don't have to take his word for it, there is one such person in this thread, who has already posted in amazement the E-Warlord is actually just the same as the original warlord. Not some gutted version ala the Slayer/Knight, so it isn't very hard to find someone who wants this to happen to martial in general. Of course their delicious tears when the essentials weaponmaster is released will - in some ways - be enough of a compromise.

 

[kaomera]

You don't have to take his word for it, there is one such person in this thread, who has already posted in amazement the E-Warlord is actually just the same as the original warlord.

Ya'know, I think I'm not reading into the posts in this thread what you're reading into them. I saw several people confused as to why they would publish what is essentially just material from the PHB1, repackaged. But that was about it.

 

[Dice4Hire]

OK, I'll take your word for it. But given that I can't say that I've actually seen one (or maybe I have and have just ignored them?) I'm hoping that they aren't likely to be seen as a popular mandate. In fact, WotC, if you're listening? If the idea behind classes like the Slayer and Scout (besides being awesome) is simplicity, you should consider than the best support they can get is not to have a million new options published for them.

Check out the recent 5E threads. Several of those people posting over there.

 

[Incenjucar]

I imagine that the designers are roughly as divided as the rest of us, but without delving into hyperbole, myth, superstition, and conspiracy.

 

[S'mon]

OK, I'll take your word for it. But given that I can't say that I've actually seen one (or maybe I have and have just ignored them?) I'm hoping that they aren't likely to be seen as a popular mandate. In fact, WotC, if you're listening? If the idea behind classes like the Slayer and Scout (besides being awesome) is simplicity, you should consider than the best support they can get is not to have a million new options published for them.

I prefer my Martial PCs without Dailies. I do like decent Encounter powers though; I'm a bit sad the E-Fighter has no Encounter equivalent of L5 Daily Rain of Steel, AFAICS.

Actually I'm not a fan of Dailies in general, they encourage 15-minute-day effect. And they can encourage sloppy design with overpowered effects "because it's a Daily" - eg the Cleric-1 Daily in Divine Power that gives the whole group Resist 5 (all) for the whole encounter, making it a great pre-buff. I'm not really sure why all powers should not be Encounter powers.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I prefer my Martial PCs without Dailies. I do like decent Encounter powers though; I'm a bit sad the E-Fighter has no Encounter equivalent of L5 Daily Rain of Steel, AFAICS.

Actually I'm not a fan of Dailies in general, they encourage 15-minute-day effect. And they can encourage sloppy design with overpowered effects "because it's a Daily" - eg the Cleric-1 Daily in Divine Power that gives the whole group Resist 5 (all) for the whole encounter, making it a great pre-buff. I'm not really sure why all powers should not be Encounter powers.

I can live with Martial not having dailies. Or even every class (except maybe wizards and clerics) only having encounters. But overall, I like the 4E system.

I do agree that martial character with no dailies and a single encounter (used X times) is not very much fun.

 

[Tony Vargas]

No, I mean the fighter sub-classes. Sure, there where a couple of neat things in Martial Power and MP2, if you really dug, but for my money HotFL is the best support the fighter has gotten since PHB1.

Not only do the HotFL martial classes offer little support to their parent classes, but, by their very existance, they have the potential to divide future support between the sub-classes and the parent classes. Because they use a novel structure, the attack powers that are such a substantial part of 4e builds are not open to them, and, likewise, any expansions to their corresponding options aren't open to the parent classes.

Going forward, then, either the Essentials or 4e classes will recieve meaningful support - and participate in the inevitable power inflation that just happens with games like D&D. So far - and it hasn't been very far - neither has received meaningful support (there was one dragon article that kicked some staff-oriented features to the HotFL classes, neither get anything singificant out of HoS).

So, you have an uncertain future for the martial power source. Will the low-option, daililess classes receive more and more stances, feats, and weapon-specific features to choose from (each more potent than the last), or will they be left 'simple?' Will their parent classes receive the same level of support going forward as those of other sources? They're already behind - the wizard has recieved 4 new highly compatible builds, and has two more set to appear in HoS, for instance.

The same question doesn't plague the Cleric or Wizard - their sub-classes follow the 4e structure, and that compatibility means that support for either is support for both.

We don't know what's going to happen. But, Essentials has set the stage for a return to the high-powered casters and optionless fighters of yesteryear. All that's needed is to just leave the 4e martial classes alone for a few years and let them fall behind the power curve.

One reason some of you are scratching your heads over this issue is because you're seeing misgivings about possible future directions indicated by specific addtions to the sysstem, and interpreting them as complaints about the current state of the game as a whole. When someone expresses alarm at the stripping of dailies from the Fighter, they're not saying that they've been stripped from all fighters, but from the most recent, and, that could lead to all martial classes losing the parity with casters they enjoyed in 4e. That designers have characterized Essentials as indicative of a 'new direction,' makes that seem all the more likely.

Simple, retro, and not 4e. The three are not in any way exclusive, why can't I have all three?

You can absolutely have simple martial classes, complex overpowered classes, (part of the retro feel) and not play 4e. That's easy. I know that's not what you meant. No, you can't have all three. 4e was a version of D&D that delivered a high degree of class balance. Destroy that, and you can restore the feel of prior eds, including making some classes overly simplistic and other complex and highly abuseable. But it's not the comparatively modern 4e version of D&D anymore.

 

[S'mon]

I do agree that martial character with no dailies and a single encounter (used X times) is not very much fun.

Well, I'm fine with my Thief, his only Encounter power is Backstab (now x2!). Much of the fun there is working out how to pull off getting Combat Advantage EVERY SINGLE TIME.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I prefer my Martial PCs without Dailies. I do like decent Encounter powers though; I'm a bit sad the E-Fighter has no Encounter equivalent of L5 Daily Rain of Steel, AFAICS.

Not likely to.

Well, I'm fine with my Thief, his only Encounter power is Backstab (now x2!). Much of the fun there is working out how to pull off getting Combat Advantage EVERY SINGLE TIME.

That is a bit of a tactial challenge (and risk) with the Rogue - with the Theif, it's just shy of a forgone conclusion.

Spoiler

Tactical Trick prettymuchs give you CA in almost any round - all you need is an enemy in range who is adjacent to an ally of yours. Knights, Slayers & Warpriests are all pretty melee oriented, so it'll be rare that there won't be. If that's not enough, add Ambush Trick, which grants CA to enemies within 5 who don't have another enemy adjacent to them. Skirmishers and artillery, the only monsters really likely to avoid being adjacent to an ally of yours, are not exactly known for clumping up (which makes them good targets for any Mage in your party). Between the two, you should trivially gain CA on the vast majority of rounds. But, on top of that, you can also have some Fortune Cards - there's a common one, Phantom Ally, that grants you CA with at-will attacks, and basic attacks (which are, ultimately, all you have) are at-will.

Actually I'm not a fan of Dailies in general, they encourage 15-minute-day effect. And they can encourage sloppy design with overpowered effects "because it's a Daily" - eg the Cleric-1 Daily in Divine Power that gives the whole group Resist 5 (all) for the whole encounter, making it a great pre-buff. I'm not really sure why all powers should not be Encounter powers.

Not wanting dailies, in general, I can understand. They do make encounter balance harder to achieve, turning battles swingier and harder for the DM to keep on an even keel - challenging, but not lethal. To many dailies blown in what was meant to be a minor battle, and the major battle can overwhelm the party. Experienced DMs can easily adjust on the fly - or just let the PCs deal with the consequences. As easy as 4e has made DMing relative to prior eds, dealing with pacing - with a system that's designed to balance encounters around a 3-5 encounter workday (and, in Essentials, also needs some attention paid to encounters/day to maintain some semblance of class balance) - is still an issue. Not as bad as the scry/buff/teleport days of 3.0, but still an issue.

An example of how D&D might work without dailies can be found in Gamma World. There are no dailies, no daily resources (like healing surges). Everything is encounter-based. It's a more casual game, but the fact that daily resources don't throw another wrench into encounter design allows it to be a little (OK, more than a little) fast and loose with balance in other areas.

Back to D&D, eliminating daily resources would improve encounter balance, and would make balancing classes easier, as well. Though, of course, encounter vs at-will resources could still be an issue of classes weren't given close parity there, as well.