Class defense bonus for D&D

[SWAT]

If you were to give a class defense bonus to each class, qualified as either Poor, Average, or Good, like it's done in Star Wars, Wheel Of Time, and Spycraft, who would get which type of bonus?

I'm determining this for my game, and currently give Good to Monks and Rogues, Bad to Clerics, Sorcerers, and Wizards, and Average to everyone else.

Thoughts?

 

[Jack Daniel]

I use the defense bonuses from D20 Modern. That game has a good, medium, and poor bonus, as well as a special bonus that only the Fast Hero gets, which is the medium bonus +2.

I chose to give defense bonuses out based on attack bonus -- so fighters, paladins, etc. get the good bonus, rogues, clerics etc. get the medium bonus, wizards and sorcerers get the poor bonus. The special medium +2 bonus goes to monks (which fits very well, since the monk's attack bonus is "medium, plus flurry attacks"). I like it when things match up like that.

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't know how this defense bonus works, so I suppose it represents the ability to defend yourself through parrying, just like Dex bonus to AC is the ability to defend yourself through dodging.

I think it shouldn't go exactly with the BAB, but at least a character with Good BAB should have Good or Average DB but not Poor, and a character with Poor BAB should have Average or Poor DB but not Good.

For example:

Fighter - Good BAB, Good DB
Ranger - Good BAB, Good DB
Barbarian - Good BAB, Average DB
Paladin - Good BAB, Average DB
Monk - Average BAB, Good DB
Rogue - Average BAB, Good DB
Bard - Average BAB, Average DB
Cleric - Average BAB, Poor DB
Druid - Average BAB, Poor DB
Sorcerer - Poor BAB, Poor DB
Wizard - Poor BAB, Poor DB

As an example, the Cleric sounds like a character who relies in defense to the armor worn, and he already can wear any armor efficiently, so I don't think he should also get any defensive training. A Rogue instead, since he's not likely to wear armor better than light, tends to train more on defense based on something else.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

What do you do with armour?

It would seem that a defense bonus would cancel out base attack bonus.

If you add in AC from armour. Especially magic armour then it would seem that someone is impossible to hit?

i.e.
5th level fighter. all 10 stats.

D20+5 to hit.

Wearing full plate + shield.
AC of 10+5+8+2 = 25

He could only hit himself on a roll of 20?


Inquiring minds need to know!

 

[PennStud77]

The way it's done in those other systems (at least I'm sure about Spycraft) is that the class defense and armor bonus do NOT stack; the class defense bonus is only used when you are in no armor.

Consequently, Unearthed Arcana threw in a variant rule for this that based the defense progression on what armor proficiencies your character began with at first level. Based on this, Clerics and Fighters do get the highest defense numbers during their progression and rogues are second worst (IIRC), which is contrary to your (sensible) thinking of characters likely to go without armor being defensively trained. On the other hand, though, characters most likely to go without armor (excluding mages) are also much more likely to be dexterous characters, which would stack with defense bonus to make them harder to hit anyway, and the higher DEX might more accurately reflect specific training in not getting hit!!

 

[thullgrim]

generally the defense bonus is not 1 for 1 with base attack bonus. I woud treat armor as damage reduction and a little AC, giving fighter the option of taking a feat (as per WoT) to combine defense bonus and armor bonus.

As for which classes get which type of bonus, dividing it by BaB seems right, I think thats the way it works in Unearthed Arcana. Making the monk the exception (giving him the good progression) seems to make sense as well.

Thullgrim

 

[Jin]

We're trying out 1/2 BAB or 1/2 base Reflex save as the Base Defensive Bonus.

The BDB doesn't stack with any armor bonus to AC.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

We're trying out 1/2 BAB or 1/2 base Reflex save as the Base Defensive Bonus.

The BDB doesn't stack with any armor bonus to AC.

Interesting. Do you get to pick which one you want to use?

Does armour do anything else instead? Is it the type of setting where people would generally wear armour? Does that include deflection/natural armour AC bonuses as well?

Does it all work well?

Sorry about rack of questions. Trying to find a system I like at the moment!

The way it's done in those other systems (at least I'm sure about Spycraft) is that the class defense and armor bonus do NOT stack; the class defense bonus is only used when you are in no armor.

Consequently, Unearthed Arcana threw in a variant rule for this that based the defense progression on what armor proficiencies your character began with at first level. Based on this, Clerics and Fighters do get the highest defense numbers during their progression and rogues are second worst (IIRC), which is contrary to your (sensible) thinking of characters likely to go without armor being defensively trained. On the other hand, though, characters most likely to go without armor (excluding mages) are also much more likely to be dexterous characters, which would stack with defense bonus to make them harder to hit anyway, and the higher DEX might more accurately reflect specific training in not getting hit!!

I played some spycraft, enjoyed it a lot. But I never liked the way that armour thing worked, just made no sense to me. Why all or nothing? As it was, I don't think anyone used armour, so it didn't really impact our game.

I looked through UA last night. Seems cool. About the armour stuff: It looked interesting, although I felt it 'rewarded' people too greatly for taking a single class in a full defense progression class. As, IIRC, you check your total character level against all the columns you qualify for and take the best. So fighter 20 and fighter1:Wizard19 had the same defense bonus.

Edit: AU, UA. They're different?

 

[Jin]

Interesting. Do you get to pick which one you want to use?

Right now, we let the individuals pick.

Does armour do anything else instead?

Yes, we use a variant the DR rules from UA. Armor still has its full AC, but it also grants the DR listed in UA. We’re also using the lethal to non-lethal damage conversion from UA.

Is it the type of setting where people would generally wear armour?

Yeah, this is why we lowered the BDB. The BDB is presented in UA would probably work fine for a low armor campaign or even one where armor only gives DR. We may look at something like that in the future.

Does that include deflection/natural armour AC bonuses as well?

Currently, BDB only replaces the armor bonuses to AC.

Does it all work well?

So far, so good. We’ll probably tweak some minor things down the road.

Sorry about rack of questions. Trying to find a system I like at the moment!

Bah, don’t be sorry, questions are good. I could be totally off my rocker & someone’s questions will point it out.

 

[wolff96]

Someone on these boards proposed something I really liked.

It was (BAB + Reflex Save) / 2. That yields a +16 to Rangers at 20th level at the high end and a +8 to Wizards and Sorcerers at the low end.

This number applies to your AC and STACKS with armor, but you deduct the Armor Check Penalty of the armor from the defense bonus.