D&D (2024) Class features with drawbacks

[GlassJaw]

But should they?

Short answer: no.

Slightly longer answer: maybe

Trust me, I am all for consequence of choice and meaningful decisions in design. However, imposing exhaustion is a bridge too far for me. It's a misstep by the design team.

If you want to keep a drawback for frenzy, there are a few ways to go:

1. Each time the barbarians take a bonus action to make an extra attack, the barbarian suffers damage equal to half its level (or something along those lines). Wording would need to be cleaned up of course. Does the damage have a type? Can it be resisted? Etc, etc.
2. Keep the exhaustion but allow the berserker to recover it more quickly. I like a mechanic that allows it to be recovered during a short rest once per day.
3. Allow the berserker to ignore the effects of a certain level of exhaustion. The level of exhaustion ignored could scale with level.

 

[Guest 6801328]

So now the price the Berserker has to pay is to not use their signature ability.

Wait, who said "not use it"? I said, "use it strategically". As in, use it when it's really important, and/or you think you'll be taking a long rest soon. If you do that it's not really much of a penalty. Sure, there's a risk. That's what makes it fun.

And using it just once a day it's still a pretty amazing ability. Better, by far, than any other level 3 subclass ability. Vastly better than Action Surge (at least in terms of dpr).

But here's the truly great thing: unlike other abilities which explicitly say "you need to take a long rest before using this again", you can use it again if you want. And, at higher levels, again and again! It's up to you to decide whether the risk:reward is worth it each time.

Again, no other class has to make that kind of choice.

I would say, "No other class gets to make that kind of choice."

Imagine if the Wizard class had, "After you've used all your spell slots for the day* you can still keep using your highest level spells, but you'll get a level of exhaustion each time." Wouldn't that be a $%$^ing incredible card up their sleeves?

*What's more gimped: a wizard without any spell slots, or a barbarian with one level of exhaustion?

 

[MechaTarrasque]

(off topic, sorry) In 6e, I would prefer races to give advantage on certain skill checks/saves instead of a bonus for racial stats.

(back on topic) I would like 6e to have more "opt in" to high risk/high reward abilities options. Maybe frenzy could be a barbarian fighting style (of which there should be a lot more, ones with no drawbacks should take concentration, and fighter's big gimmick will be marital secrets that lets them take fighting styles from other classes). Likewise if a caster wants to burn hp's for spell slots, there should be a feat for that.

 

[Guest 6801328]

(off topic, sorry) In 6e, I would prefer races to give advantage on certain skill checks/saves instead of a bonus for racial stats.

There is some of that, but, yeah, more would be nice.

(back on topic) I would like 6e to have more "opt in" to high risk/high reward abilities options. Maybe frenzy could be a barbarian fighting style (of which there should be a lot more, ones with no drawbacks should take concentration, and fighter's big gimmick will be marital secrets that lets them take fighting styles from other classes). Likewise if a caster wants to burn hp's for spell slots, there should be a feat for that.

Best typo ever.

 

[Phazonfish]

And using it just once a day it's still a pretty amazing ability. Better, by far, than any other level 3 subclass ability. Vastly better than Action Surge (at least in terms of dpr).

Is it? Let's compare a 3rd level Fighter (Battle Master, 16 Dex, wielding 2 short swords, TWF Fighting Style) with a 3rd level Barbarian (Frenzy, 16 Str, wielding a greatsword)

Round 1 (B): The Barbarian rages and takes a single swing. 2d6+5 damage
Round 2 (B): The Barbarian takes one swing as an action, and another as a bonus action. 4d6+10 damage
Round 3 (B): The Barbarian takes two swing just like last round; let's model the impact of Reckless Attack by saying the Barbarian gets a crit here, because advantage will do that from time to time. 6d6+10 damage
Total: The DMG recommends using the first three rounds when assessing damage output, so let's end combat and take a tally here. 12d6+25 (67 average) damage

Round 1 (F): The Fighter attacks once as an action. The Fighter attacks again with an Action Surge! The Fighter attacks a third time with their off-hand weapon as a bonus action. He decides to spend superiority dice on all of these attacks. 3d6+3d8+9 damage
Round 2 (F): The Fighter attacks once as an action, and again as a bonus action; he has one superiority die left, and spends it on his first attack. 2d6+1d8+6 damage
Round 3 (F): The Fighter attacks once as an action. Healing is as good as damage, so the Fighter decides to pop his Second Wind as a bonus action. 1d6+1d10+6 damage (including healing)
Total: Like with the Barb, we'll stop at round 3. 6d6+4d8+1d10+21 (65.5 average) damage

These damage numbers look pretty even, despite the Barbarian burning through a long rest worth of resources while the Fighter burns through only a short rest's worth. Let's say the maneuver the Fighter was using was Precision Strike because otherwise, by assuming all attacks are hits, we aren't being fair to the accuracy the Barbarian gains from Reckless Attacks, even with that crit I threw in there.

Imagine if the Wizard class had, "After you've used all your spell slots for the day* you can still keep using your highest level spells, but you'll get a level of exhaustion each time." Wouldn't that be a $%$^ing incredible card up their sleeves?

More like: imagine if Wizards had to get a level of exhaustion each time they expend a spell slot above 2nd level to cast a spell. You have to expend rage uses just like the Wizard expends spell slots, and unlike the Wizard feature you pitched you are not gaining exhaustion to keep using frenzy, you are gaining exhaustion to use frenzy at all.

What's more gimped: a wizard without any spell slots, or a barbarian with one level of exhaustion?

I'm glad you brought this up, because it is another thing that bothers me. The Barbarian with exhaustion has disadvantage on ability checks, reducing their ability to contribute to the exploration and social pillars of the game where I've always believed casters already have a bit of an unfair advantage to begin with. A Wizard without spell slots still has their cantrips and rituals.

 

[Redwizard007]

Is it? Let's compare a 3rd level Fighter (Battle Master, 16 Dex, wielding 2 short swords, TWF Fighting Style) with a 3rd level Barbarian (Frenzy, 16 Str, wielding a greatsword)

Round 1 (B): The Barbarian rages and takes a single swing. 2d6+5 damage
Round 2 (B): The Barbarian takes one swing as an action, and another as a bonus action. 4d6+10 damage
Round 3 (B): The Barbarian takes two swing just like last round; let's model the impact of Reckless Attack by saying the Barbarian gets a crit here, because advantage will do that from time to time. 6d6+10 damage
Total: The DMG recommends using the first three rounds when assessing damage output, so let's end combat and take a tally here. 12d6+25 (67 average) damage

Round 1 (F): The Fighter attacks once as an action. The Fighter attacks again with an Action Surge! The Fighter attacks a third time with their off-hand weapon as a bonus action. He decides to spend superiority dice on all of these attacks. 3d6+3d8+9 damage
Round 2 (F): The Fighter attacks once as an action, and again as a bonus action; he has one superiority die left, and spends it on his first attack. 2d6+1d8+6 damage
Round 3 (F): The Fighter attacks once as an action. Healing is as good as damage, so the Fighter decides to pop his Second Wind as a bonus action. 1d6+1d10+6 damage (including healing)
Total: Like with the Barb, we'll stop at round 3. 6d6+4d8+1d10+21 (65.5 average) damage

These damage numbers look pretty even, despite the Barbarian burning through a long rest worth of resources while the Fighter burns through only a short rest's worth. Let's say the maneuver the Fighter was using was Precision Strike because otherwise, by assuming all attacks are hits, we aren't being fair to the accuracy the Barbarian gains from Reckless Attacks, even with that crit I threw in there.



More like: imagine if Wizards had to get a level of exhaustion each time they expend a spell slot above 2nd level to cast a spell. You have to expend rage uses just like the Wizard expends spell slots, and unlike the Wizard feature you pitched you are not gaining exhaustion to keep using frenzy, you are gaining exhaustion to use frenzy at all.



I'm glad you brought this up, because it is another thing that bothers me. The Barbarian with exhaustion has disadvantage on ability checks, reducing their ability to contribute to the exploration and social pillars of the game where I've always believed casters already have a bit of an unfair advantage to begin with. A Wizard without spell slots still has their cantrips and rituals.

So is your problem how this was executed in 5e, or an active dislike for the concept as a whole?

 

[Phazonfish]

So is your problem how this was executed in 5e, or an active dislike for the concept as a whole?

I don't actually dislike Frenzy, I just think saying that it is by far the best low level feature for martial classes is a bit of an exaggeration. If I had to answer I would probably say execution though. Would have been nice if the first frenzy per long rest was free and the exhaustion didn't kick in until the rage ends.

 

[Salamandyr]

Drawbacks have their place, but I believe that the Berserker Frenzy drawback is a bad one, while ability penalties offsetting bonuses in other areas is a good one.

To elaborate--one has a baseline; for instance, in earlier editions of D&D, the human is the standard by which attributes are judged. The human has neither bonuses nor penalties his attribute scores. So looking at attributes the human would be worth 0 points. By contrast other races have bonuses and penalties, that make them weaker or stronger than a human would be. For instance an elf is more agile, but also more frail. So the elf costs 1 point for his dexterity bonus, but subtract 1 point for his constitution penalty, for a result of 0. The elf and the human are balanced. The drawback allows for a player to have a desired advantage while not being overpowered next to a fellow player.

By contrast, every subclass is supposed to gain a cool ability-they get 1 point. The Champion gets improved critical, the Wizard gets cool School abilities, the Totem barbarian gets a need power-up. But the berserker, who gets an ability that isn't overpowered relative to other subclass abilities, also has to deal with a drawback that, once in play, hurts the characters effectiveness for the rest of the game session.

So 1 point for his ability, -1 for his drawback; while everyone else is at 1, the berserker barbarian is at 0.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Is it? Let's compare a 3rd level Fighter (Battle Master, 16 Dex, wielding 2 short swords, TWF Fighting Style) with a 3rd level Barbarian (Frenzy, 16 Str, wielding a greatsword)

Round 1 (B): The Barbarian rages and takes a single swing. 2d6+5 damage
Round 2 (B): The Barbarian takes one swing as an action, and another as a bonus action. 4d6+10 damage
Round 3 (B): The Barbarian takes two swing just like last round; let's model the impact of Reckless Attack by saying the Barbarian gets a crit here, because advantage will do that from time to time. 6d6+10 damage
Total: The DMG recommends using the first three rounds when assessing damage output, so let's end combat and take a tally here. 12d6+25 (67 average) damage

Round 1 (F): The Fighter attacks once as an action. The Fighter attacks again with an Action Surge! The Fighter attacks a third time with their off-hand weapon as a bonus action. He decides to spend superiority dice on all of these attacks. 3d6+3d8+9 damage
Round 2 (F): The Fighter attacks once as an action, and again as a bonus action; he has one superiority die left, and spends it on his first attack. 2d6+1d8+6 damage
Round 3 (F): The Fighter attacks once as an action. Healing is as good as damage, so the Fighter decides to pop his Second Wind as a bonus action. 1d6+1d10+6 damage (including healing)
Total: Like with the Barb, we'll stop at round 3. 6d6+4d8+1d10+21 (65.5 average) damage

These damage numbers look pretty even, despite the Barbarian burning through a long rest worth of resources while the Fighter burns through only a short rest's worth. Let's say the maneuver the Fighter was using was Precision Strike because otherwise, by assuming all attacks are hits, we aren't being fair to the accuracy the Barbarian gains from Reckless Attacks, even with that crit I threw in there.

First, if we are talking about the value of the subclass ability you have to compare ability to ability, not class to class.

So compute how much damage fighter and barbarian would each do at level 3, then compute additional damage due to the ability.

You’ll get a dramatically different result. Quick math says it’s +12 for barb, +4.5 for fighter, per round.

Then, what if the fight goes on 3, 4, 5 rounds? More? The fighter is out of gas. The barbarian keeps dishing it out.

And if they were wrong and this was NOT the boss fight, and before they even get a short rest they find themselves in a worse fight? The barbarian can frenzy again. Two levels of exhaustion are getting to be a pain, but maybe worth it. The fighter doesn’t have that option.
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Typing on phone so more will have to wait.

 

[Phazonfish]

First, if we are talking about the value of the subclass ability you have to compare ability to ability, not class to class.

So compute how much damage fighter and barbarian would each do at level 3, then compute additional damage due to the ability.

Except by doing so, you overvalue Frenzy because you are treating the bonus action like free real estate, when in reality there are many ways to get an extra attack as a bonus action. Sure, Frenzy is the best one, but that doesn't make it okay to assume the others are worthless. Frenzy comes after dipping 3 levels into a class and is still pretty restrictive; by comparison, anyone can perform two-weapon fighting.

Even if you try to isolate it though...

Better, by far, than any other level 3 subclass ability.

...this is still an exaggeration. Over a three round combat, Frenzy boosts your damage by 4d6+6 (20 average) (since you wanna be strict about keeping it isolated I'm not counting rage damage, that credit goes to Rage rather than Frenzy); in the meantime, the Battle Master is getting 4d8 (18 average) damage plus riders. Again, approximately the same impact, with the Fighter only spending short rest resources.

Then, what if the fight goes on 3, 4, 5 rounds? More? The fighter is out of gas. The barbarian keeps dishing it out.

And if they were wrong and this was NOT the boss fight, and before they even get a short rest they find themselves in a worse fight? The barbarian can frenzy again. Two levels of exhaustion are getting to be a pain, but maybe worth it. The fighter doesn’t have that option.

Then, what if the day goes on for 6, 7, 8 medium or harder encounters? More? The Barbarian was starting to hurt when the second one started. And each level of exhaustion is an order of magnitude worse than the last. We can both find situations where the Frenzy Barb excels or fails, but I wouldn't say it excels the vast majority of the time.