Class Imbalance?

[Khaalis]

Has anyone else felt that the Sorcerer is drastically underpowered? I am thinking of doing some serious revamping of the class to make it a useful class. It’s not even a pale comparison to the Wizard in my opinion because it doesn’t even have a real flavor or fluff on why/how it is different than a wizard. It has no nitch of its own other than as a Combat or Illusion spell battery - and there is supposed to be more to an RPG than killing "mobs" - this isn’t EQ, etc. Even with a decent selection of spells for the whopping 4 you get per spell level – yes arcane magic can do some amazing things, but most spells are very limited in their use and worthless to a Sorcerer who needs the most broad effect/use spells they can get.

For sake of the “balance” argument, in a comparison of Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard and Cleric… the Sorcerer lags Far behind.

COMPARE	          RANGER	  SORCERER	     WIZARD	CLERIC
HD	          d8	          d4	             d4	        d8
BAB	          Best	          Worst	             Worst	Median
Saves	          2 Good	  1 Good	     1 Good	2 Good
Skill Points	  6+	          2+	             2+	        2+
Class Skills	  19	          6	      4+All Knowledge	10 + domain
Class Abilities	  17	          1	             6	3
Weapons	          Martial	  Simple	     Limited	Simple
Armor	          Lt, Md, Sd	  None	             None	All
SPELLS				
Max Cast	  3/Spell Level	  6/Spell Level	  4/Spell Level	5/Spell Level
Max Spell Level	  4th	          9th	             9th	9th
Spells Known	  Ave=13/SL	  Ave=4/SL	     Ave=37/SL	Ave=22/SL
Spell Prep	  Prepared	  On-the-Fly	     Prepared	Prepared

Anyone else feel that the Sorcerer is basically useless or weakly balanced?

Personally I feel the class could use some serious balancing to make it viable with the other classes.

Thanks for any input.

 

[The Souljourner]

He gets spells late, he gets no special abilities besides a familiar, he gets SO few known spells, and his spells are based on what is generally the most useless stat.

I love the idea of spontaneously casting, it's how 99% of all fantasy stories describe magic, but because it's so much better than the wizard, WoTC felt they needed to tone it down. Unfortunately, being able to spontaneously cast 1 or 2 spells is no better than the wizard being able to memorize 1 or 2 spells, except the wizard can choose 1 or 2 from all spells he knows, which could be every spell in the PHB.

I think some spells need to be toned down in power a little bit so that wizards and sorcerers can be improved a little bit. Sorcerers should be able to know a lot more spells than they do. Of course then wizards look bad... I'd say, just do away with wizards, and make sorcerers better.

-The Souljourner

 

[Pax]

For sake of the “balance” argument, in a comparison of Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard and Cleric… the Sorcerer lags Far behind.

Actually, you've made a slight error in your table -- you forgot to allow for Specialist Wizards, whose maximum spells-per-day comes to 5 per spell level.

Anyone else feel that the Sorcerer is basically useless or weakly balanced?

Mainly, I think that the sorceror and wizard should get comparable bonus feats offered to each; the Sorceror should have more class skills; Sorcerors should be able to specialise the same way Wizards do (IMC, I give sorceror-specialists an added spell KNOWN, rather than an extra spell CAST, per spell level).

[Edit]
Actually, I'd also like to see Sorcerors gien their own, independant spell list. Name me any two other (base) classes which share a spell list, in all of D&D.
[/Edit]

 

[JoeBlank]

After having played a sorcerer for a while, I can safely say that in my opinion the class is not nearly as underpowered as many have suggested. It may be slightly underpowered, or lacking a little bit in flavor, but almost all of the suggested changes I have seen go much too far.

If I were going to house rule the class, I would do one of the following (or if I wanted to get creative, and give the class more flexibility, I would allow individual sorcerers to pick one of these changes:

- d6 hit dice

- 4 skill points (rangers and bards got more skill points in 3.5, it couldn't hurt to give the sorcerer a couple more)

- A few more class skills (perhaps allow these to vary, so each sorcerer picks maybe 2 skills to be class skills)

- bonus feats at 5th, 10th and 15th, like the Wizard (this might be the best option, as it allows sorcerers to make full use of metamagic, further distinguishing them from wizards)

- An option to swap the familiar for Eschew Materials (this might be okay in addition to one of the other options)

I think with one of these small changes the sorcerer would be balanced and a little more fun to play.

That said, I had a great time playing a sorcerer, and would do so again without any changes to the class.

 

[Bauglir]

I find sorcerers to be fine. Sure they get less spells known, but with a reasonable selection you can achieve most effects that you need, and keep a stock of scrolls to cover the spells you would only cast every once in a while..

Unlike a wizard, the sorcerer never 'wastes' a spell by memorizing one that turns out not to be useful. (For example, should a sorcerer come across a fire immune opponent then he can simply use his 3rd level slots to cast empowered magic missiles instead of fireballs, or even normal magic missiles if for some reason he can't stay still long enough to apply metamagic. Sure, casting a first level spell in a third level slot is suboptimal, but compare this to a wizard who memorized a fireball in his third level slot, and gets no use out of it at all...)

This effect is emphasised even further when metamagic comes into the mix (Energy Substitution in particular) - the sorcerer can whip up whatever pickle of metamagic he needs for the situation, meanwhile the wizard is stuck with whatever he has memorized.

Flavourwise the sorcerer achieves through raw talent and force of character (aka charisma ) what the wizard spends a lifetime studying to learn. Unlike the wizard, the sorcerer can use their magic almost casually (after all, it's not like they can't cast that spell again later if they really need to..).

The sorcerer is my favourite class, far from being underpowered imo (although I don't consider them overpowered either)

 

[CombatWombat51]

I voted "other".

I have to say, I don't like sorcerers. They just aren't different enough from wizards, IMO. No real niche IMC. My players never play one, and I think it could have to do with us growing up on M-U's, and that's it. But I can't bear to scrap them, because I like them as NPC's, especially monstrous ones. I like them because they take less planning and work to create, since they know less spells. As NPC's, I also like them, because it means I can throw spellcasters at the PC's without giving them spellbooks for every caster they kill. I guess I use sorcerers as sort of a spell casting template.

I don't know what you're trying to get out of this pole, so I can't really say much to be more helpful

 

[Khaalis]

Well, without forcing this over to the House Rules forum, I simply wanted to get a wider majority view on the Sorcerer. The more I look at some of the base classes, the more I dislike some of them (Rangers forced to be Divine Casters anyone?) and many gamers I know, feel the same way. Dont get me wrong there are some great things in 3/3.5 like the skill system mechanics, feats, the whole d20 system, etc. but there are also some things that need to be brought more up to date than clingling to old 1E legacies.

One thing for example that annoys me even with the skill system is that a Fighter, generally assigned to be the dumbest lot in the RPG world, gain the same skill alottment as the Wizard - the braniac of the RPG world. HUH? The logic in this is what? Yes, Wizards generally have a high Intelligence, but they should not be penalized because they excell where they are supposed to. Wizards are supposed to have many ranks in the few skills they have access to -Knowledge skills. Yet they are handicapped in skill points from the begining. Thats just my take on it anyway. Seems rather silly to me.

Getting back to the Sorcerer, I have play tested them on various occasions and I just dont like them other than as a DM tool of destruction. Overall I find them weak in any role other than a combat spell battery, and much less versatile in comparison to almost any other class except the fighter - which is designed to do one thing and one thing only. Even a Barbarian has a slew of skills (and decent skill points) to allow them to offer other options to the party other than being a killing machine. And WHAT is with a Sorcerer not getting Charisma based skills? Yes in 3.5 they finally added Bluff... but thats it? Nothing else to take advantage of the suposed strength of the class? Logic....?

As for the Metamagic argument - personally I dont see it as viable. I do not see where a Sorcerer should Have to give up their oh-so-few feats (7 at level 20, 8 if human) on taking metamagic feats JUST so they can make their meager spell selection more "useful". Yes taking them can be an advantage - and thats good. However, it shouldnt be a necessity to make the class viable - it should be a flavor choice for the character.

As for the mechanics - I have a lot of ideas, but it would basically be an entirely new mechanic based on the fluff of the class (Heredity? Not spells but Spell-Like Abilities?) - which in my opinion has not been justified with the class' abilities. As was mentioned earlier - its just a shadow of the Wizard. Oh - and I do agree that Sorcerers should have an Entirely different spell list than Wizards.

If anyone is interested I can briefly outline some of the ideas I have, but if no one is interested, I wont waste people's time.

Thanks for all of the opinions and votes. The more the better so I can see what the general view is. If I get enough support I might venture into releasing a new variant and even expand it into a small supliment of its own.

 

[Ottergame]

The sorc is sorta like the bard, you have to be smart to play one. You can't just blindly fly through creation like you can with a fighter and hope to get something useable. Stop and plot out exactly what you want from the class, and work from there.

 

[Bauglir]

I don't consider metamagic feats to be 100% required to make a sorcerer worthwhile, but they do make a better choice for the sorcerer than any other class due to their synergy with the class' own inherent strengths.

Kind of like Weapon Finesse for Rogues, or Power Attack for Barbarians...

 

[Darklone]

I never saw sorcerers as underpowered. Boring yes.

Use the spellsinger from the KPG instead. Different flavor.