D&D 5E Class levels on monsters?
- Thread starter ziltmilt
- Start date
aramis erak
Legend
The MM doesn't say either way.
None of the MM entries I've looked at have them, tho'. Many have the spellcasting ability, and thus act as if they have class levels.
So it's not a "certainty" either way.
None of the MM entries I've looked at have them, tho'. Many have the spellcasting ability, and thus act as if they have class levels.
So it's not a "certainty" either way.
Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
Simply give monsters any additional abilities you want them to have; there's no need to abide by strict class levels.
the Jester
Legend
Actually, Mearls has referred to things like giving an ogre a level of fighter, so I'd guess you can, but it's not confirmed either way. I expect the DMG to cover that kind of thing.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Oh god no.
I agree with Olgar upthread; PC-style special abilities are fine for monsters, but actually tacking on class levels leads to massive stat block bloat. If you notice, for example, how spellcasting is handled, the spellcasting trait just gives the spells, not any class features or HD.
My recommendation would be to look at the lair powers for monsters and see how those adjust the CR, then compare with the PC abilities you want to add. Also keep in mind that you should always go for a conversion in spirit rather than according to the literal mechanics. For example, a kenku Rog6/Rgr1/Asn10 (see "Library of Last Resort" in the Age of Worms adventure path) can be statted out as a standard assassin NPC (5e MM, pg. 343) advanced to CR 17 (guidelines in the DMG, I'm guessing) with the kenku's Ambusher and Mimicry traits. It's up to you as to whether the Ambusher trait moves the needle on CR; I'd be inclined to say it doesn't.
Similarly, a Gnoll Rgr2 could probably just be replaced with the Gnoll Pack Lord; if you wanted to make it more "ranger-y," perhaps remove the Incite Rampage trait and give the gnoll the benefits of the archer fighting style (ie change the longbow attack to +6 to hit) and the hunter's mark power (+1d6 damage and advantage on Perception and Survival checks against a single target the gnoll can see). That's fast and easily identifies the creature as a "gnoll ranger."
I agree with Olgar upthread; PC-style special abilities are fine for monsters, but actually tacking on class levels leads to massive stat block bloat. If you notice, for example, how spellcasting is handled, the spellcasting trait just gives the spells, not any class features or HD.
My recommendation would be to look at the lair powers for monsters and see how those adjust the CR, then compare with the PC abilities you want to add. Also keep in mind that you should always go for a conversion in spirit rather than according to the literal mechanics. For example, a kenku Rog6/Rgr1/Asn10 (see "Library of Last Resort" in the Age of Worms adventure path) can be statted out as a standard assassin NPC (5e MM, pg. 343) advanced to CR 17 (guidelines in the DMG, I'm guessing) with the kenku's Ambusher and Mimicry traits. It's up to you as to whether the Ambusher trait moves the needle on CR; I'd be inclined to say it doesn't.
Similarly, a Gnoll Rgr2 could probably just be replaced with the Gnoll Pack Lord; if you wanted to make it more "ranger-y," perhaps remove the Incite Rampage trait and give the gnoll the benefits of the archer fighting style (ie change the longbow attack to +6 to hit) and the hunter's mark power (+1d6 damage and advantage on Perception and Survival checks against a single target the gnoll can see). That's fast and easily identifies the creature as a "gnoll ranger."
Li Shenron
Legend
There is nothing that says they can't have class levels, you can just add class levels to any monster you want, but the actual problem is that we are not told how CR/XP is affected by doing so, thus we can't figure out how to properly balance encounters with them.
Personally if I had to design rules for advancing monsters using classes, I wouldn't follow the 3e idea of just "stacking" class levels on top of regular monsters stats, but instead I would consider "gestalting" class levels with the monster's base stats (until the point where class levels surpass some limit). I am not sure, but I think the current spellcasting added to monsters may work just like that, so it might work also for non-spellcasting class abilities.
Li Shenron
Legend
Either way, if we don't know how the CR/XP changes, additional abilities or class levels are both just shots in the dark.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Well I'm sure the DMG answers these questions. (Yes I absolutely think the MM should have had the leveling/de-leveling rules but it's possible that multiple methods will be presented as options, which is definitely DMG territory.)
As I said, for now it's easy enough to guesstimate; CR is going to be more art than science no matter what, so adding or swapping abilities is unlikely to be as big a deal. Obviously actually adding levels has a significant impact on CR due to save proficiencies, hp, attack bonuses and so on, but I still believe that the odd flavor ability gets the job done in communicating "x monster has some y class abilities."
As I said, for now it's easy enough to guesstimate; CR is going to be more art than science no matter what, so adding or swapping abilities is unlikely to be as big a deal. Obviously actually adding levels has a significant impact on CR due to save proficiencies, hp, attack bonuses and so on, but I still believe that the odd flavor ability gets the job done in communicating "x monster has some y class abilities."
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