D&D 5E Class Mechanics Idea: The Warlord

Dragoslav

First Post
I think it would be a shame to get rid of the different Warlord builds, which each rely on a different primary stat. All Warlords need strength (except maybe lazy warlords), but a Warlord can then focus on Int, Cha, or even Wis to determine how he leads, and this plays out really differently in practice.

This could work in your system by simply forcing the player to choose whether he wants to focus on, say, Inspiration or Tactics. The mechanics would have to be designed such that only focusing on one area wouldn't be sub-optimal.
 

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cmbarona

First Post
Hmm... Perhaps the Warlord doesn't choose the class's Ability Score Adjustment, but it is determined by his choice of subclass. In this way, there could be common mechanics that have specifics derived from the subclass, like a Cleric's domain determining their specific spell list.

Also, I didn't say it earlier, but I really like the idea of aura-like battle formations. It really gives the feel that the Warlord is affecting the battle right in the thick of things.
 

Zustiur

Explorer
The Dex is an option for warlord who want to use ranged or finesse weapons. I had Charisma there first time I wrote it up but was afraid of MAD - with Str and Int you already have more "important" abilities than a wizard or rogue.

Ah, but strength shouldn't be important. At most it should be his secondary stat. If the archetype is about being a leader; inspiring, tactical and strategic, then strength doesn't actually play a part. Sure, if you want him in the front line, strength will help, but that is not part of the archetype that the class is trying to represent.

I realize I'm contradicting the 4E PHB here, but I believe this is where a lot of the arguments come from. Particularly, 'warlord is just an inspiring fighter'. Strength is already the focus of fighters and barbarians. There isn't a heck of a lot of distinction between those two as is; adding strength based warlords into the mix just makes the situation worse.


With your current build; what does intelligence actually do? It allows a number of tactics, and it can be used in place of strength on one particular attack. The first has major importance, the second is actually a waste, and that's it. There are no other mentions of intelligence at all. I say the second is a waste - you can use it instead of your strength to hit... with a class where you've decided that strength is the primary attribute. So I can use my secondary attribute instead of my primary attribute to attack. No thanks.

This is an issue I've been paying attention to lately. Taking the wizard as my example; in 2E, intelligence affected Chance to Learn Spell, and Max # of Spells/level, but not anything else. Yet I gather many groups didn't like the % chances or max spells, so they just ignored those rules (in fact, Max Spells was clearly labelled as optional), which means that intelligence wasn't actually required to be a wizard. Oops!

You're in danger of treading down the same path.

The other danger I see here is the potential splitting of the class between primary attributes. If you take my advice and demote strength to a secondary; then intelligence or charisma become potential primary attributes, with (as yet) no clear winner. It is critical that we don't repeat the mistake of the early 4E cleric - two mutually exclusive primary attributes (Str and Wis).

I'd avoid this as follows:
Intelligence determines the number of concurrent effects. Charisma determines the strength of those effects. Strength is thrown in for good luck.
A warlord should be able to get away with 12 or 13 starting strength, because hitting things isn't his shtick; in fact, he could probably get away with 8 strength if he uses dex for ranged attacks and leads from the back. Intelligence focused or Charisma focused should work equally well, but in different ways. One provides broader support, the other provides more powerful but more constrained support.

With flatter math; having a lower starting strength shouldn't be too much of a detriment to the warlord. He can still hit things, he just won't do so as often as the fighter. This in turn would help with differentiating the fighter from other classes.
 

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
Ah, but strength shouldn't be important. At most it should be his secondary stat. If the archetype is about being a leader; inspiring, tactical and strategic, then strength doesn't actually play a part. Sure, if you want him in the front line, strength will help, but that is not part of the archetype that the class is trying to represent.

I realize I'm contradicting the 4E PHB here, but I believe this is where a lot of the arguments come from. Particularly, 'warlord is just an inspiring fighter'. Strength is already the focus of fighters and barbarians. There isn't a heck of a lot of distinction between those two as is; adding strength based warlords into the mix just makes the situation worse.

I see your point. Here's the rub: in 5e, each class clearly has one primary attribute that they use for all their attacks, spells, etc. This is, IMO, actually a great system for reducing munchkinism: as long as you put your best score in your class's primary attribute, you can shift around your other attributes to fit your character concept without screwing yourself over in unexpected ways. (For example, you can play a grumpy, ugly cleric without inexplicably being bad at turning undead, and you can play a strong but clumsy fighter without taking a penalty to AC until you're high enough level to afford plate.)

The only exceptions are the class builds with what we could call (in 4e terms) hybrid roles: the war cleric and the draconic sorcerer, who use Wis or Cha for spells and Str for attacks. But there clearly are (or in the case of the sorcerer will be) more straightforward builds for those classes that rely on one primary stat.

I agree that Strength should not be the warlord's primary attribute. It should be either Int or Cha. But at the same time, I don't want the warlord to feel screwed over in ways other classes aren't. I want to be able to play an unpleasant but brilliant tactician without sucking. This requires some work.

With your current build; what does intelligence actually do? It allows a number of tactics, and it can be used in place of strength on one particular attack. The first has major importance, the second is actually a waste, and that's it. There are no other mentions of intelligence at all. I say the second is a waste - you can use it instead of your strength to hit... with a class where you've decided that strength is the primary attribute. So I can use my secondary attribute instead of my primary attribute to attack. No thanks.

This is an issue I've been paying attention to lately. Taking the wizard as my example; in 2E, intelligence affected Chance to Learn Spell, and Max # of Spells/level, but not anything else. Yet I gather many groups didn't like the % chances or max spells, so they just ignored those rules (in fact, Max Spells was clearly labelled as optional), which means that intelligence wasn't actually required to be a wizard. Oops!

You're in danger of treading down the same path.

I agree; the current system is a bit of a kludge. Int has very little impact between maybe level 3 and level 10.

The other danger I see here is the potential splitting of the class between primary attributes. If you take my advice and demote strength to a secondary; then intelligence or charisma become potential primary attributes, with (as yet) no clear winner. It is critical that we don't repeat the mistake of the early 4E cleric - two mutually exclusive primary attributes (Str and Wis).

This is the other thing I'm worried about.

I'd avoid this as follows:
Intelligence determines the number of concurrent effects. Charisma determines the strength of those effects. Strength is thrown in for good luck.
A warlord should be able to get away with 12 or 13 starting strength, because hitting things isn't his shtick; in fact, he could probably get away with 8 strength if he uses dex for ranged attacks and leads from the back. Intelligence focused or Charisma focused should work equally well, but in different ways. One provides broader support, the other provides more powerful but more constrained support.

With flatter math; having a lower starting strength shouldn't be too much of a detriment to the warlord. He can still hit things, he just won't do so as often as the fighter. This in turn would help with differentiating the fighter from other classes.

I'm not sure I agree that the warlord doesn't care about hitting things, or that bounded accuracy alleviates the problem. (I'd say the opposite: because there is such a narrow range of expected attack bonuses, every little bit is that much more important. In 3e you could sort of make up for a crappy Strength with Weapon Focus or something; no such "luck" in 5e.)

And again, I don't like having both Int AND Cha as required stats, because (1) no other 5e class requires THREE decent stats and (2) I think a low-Cha warlord should be viable. I'd also like a warlord with a mediocre Int and great Cha to be viable, but since the bard and/or paladin can fill the role of "inspirational team player," I'd give that up before the tactical side.

I'll think through some possibilities in the next post.
 

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
So first off, I really like the idea of Int affecting the max number of tactics you can use per encounter. It would be a great way of making Int impactful without just adding your Int bonus to a bunch of damage/healing rolls.

I'd probably still want to start out slow on the max number of tactics per encounter, though. This would actually dovetail nicely with the previous setup: Int can determine your starting Tactics and LIMIT your max tactics per encounter. So a level 1 warlord with 14 Int can prepare two tactics per encounter but only knows three total. A level 1 warlord with 18 Int can still only prepare two tactics per encounter but knows five total. But at level 4 the 18 Int warlord moves up to 3/encounter, while the 14 Int warlord is stuck at 2/encounter. And a warlord with 12 Int can only prepare one tactic.

This way, maxing out Int makes the character more tactically rich and complex, while putting less focus on Int and more on Str or Dex makes for more of a hybrid character who dishes out damage himself while also guiding the team.

Now, I personally do not like the idea of making Charisma add to the power of your tactics, because (a) I think a low-Cha warlord should be viable and (b) a lot of tactics rely on advantage, disadvantage, extra attacks, denied enemy actions, and other things that make it hard to toss in an ability modifier.

However, it would make sense to me to have Charisma buff specifically defensive, protective, and restorative powers like Triage. So a low-Cha warlord is a mediocre healer, while a high-Cha warlord is better.

Ideally, this way the warlord could actually have two different important mental abilities without any "traps." You can be a perfectly effective warlord with a 14 Int and 10 Cha, but 18 Cha will make you a very good healer/buffer and 18 Int will make you a tactical mastermind.

I've reworked the class to attempt to take these into account below. As always, suggestions and comments welcome!
 

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
OK, here's the second edited version.

Changes were made to Stay Focused, Blood Harvest and Triage. Don't Die On Me was added as well.

Warlord
Warlords are masters of tactical combat. They are formidable martial combatants in their own right, but their true power comes from their ability to forge a group of adventurers into a true fighting force.
Key Abilities: Intelligence, Charisma, and Strength or Dexterity. Strength and Dexterity determine the warlord's AC and proficiency with weapon attacks. Intelligence dictates the how many tactics the warlord starts with and limits how many he can prepare per encounter. And Charisma affects the power of many of his defensive and protective tactics.

Creating a Warlord
When you create a character whose first class is warlord, you gain these benefits.
Ability Adjustment: +1 to your Strength, Dexterity, or Intelligence score
Starting Hit Points: 8 + your Constitution modifier
Armor and Shield Proficiencies: All
Weapon Proficiencies: All

Code:
Lvl  Hit Dice  Atk  Morale  Tactics  Class Features
1    1d8       +2   2/day   2/rest    Drills, Combat Tactics
2    2d8       +2   2/day   2/rest
3    3d8       +2   3/day   2/rest    New drill
4    4d8       +2   3/day   3/rest
5    5d8       +3   4/day   3/rest

Class Features
A warlord gains the following class features.
Hit Dice: 1d8 per warlord level
Hit Points: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per warlord level gained.

Level 1: Drills
The warlord has drilled tirelessly in a number of maneuvers that aid his allies in combat and help fuse them into a deadly fighting force. These drills can be repeated as often as desired. Unless noted otherwise, drills are actions.
At first level, the warlord knows Triage and two other drills; he learns an additional drill of his choice every third level (3, 6, 9).

Level 1: Combat Tactics
The warlord has studied numerous clever tactics designed to enhance the effectiveness of his unit in combat. These tactics must be carefully plotted out and discussed with the party before the fighting starts. This means that however many tactics the warlord knows, he must choose only two of them to prepare for each combat. This increases to 3 at 4th level and 4 at 8th. However, he can never prepare a number of tactics greater than his Int modifier. When he has a short rest, he can use the downtime to plot out new maneuvers for the next combat with his party. Any member of the party not present and conscious for the short rest will not be able to participate in or receive benefits from the warlord's tactics in the following battle.

The party can use one tactic at a time; the warlord can declare a starting tactic during the time when he is plotting tactics, and can change tactics once per round on his turn. (This is not an action.) He can switch between the tactics he has prepared as many times as he deems appropriate.

In his detailed knowledge of the ways of combat, the warlord recognizes that morale is often the key to victory. An "inspiration" is a type of tactic typically used out of combat, which generally takes some time to perform but does not need to be prepared in advance. These inspirations cost "Morale." Morale represents the limit of the warlord's ability to inspire confidence and teamwork in his unit, and can only be recharged with a long rest. A warlord has 2 Morale Points per day at first level, increasing by 1 at each odd level (3 at 3rd, 4 at 5th, etc).

Every warlord knows the Inspiration Dig Deep and at least one non-Inspiration tactic of his choice. If his Int modifier is positive, he adds it to the number of tactics he knows at first level. The warlord automatically learns a new tactic every level. He may also learn additional tactics from books of strategy, scrolls, or directly from other warlords and prominent tacticians; the value of these tactics is widely recognized, however, and the warlord can expect to pay a hefty price in gold or in favors if he wants to learn a new tactic. It takes at least 24 total hours of study, drilling, and practice to master a new tactic in all its intricacies.

List of Drills
Triage
His vast experience on the battlefield allows the warlord to apply poultices and salves with military efficiency. When you use this ability on an adjacent ally, he may spend one of his Hit Dice to recharge hit points as if you were using a Healer's Kit outside of combat, with a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier. At third level, he may spend up to 2 HD this way, increasing by an additional HD every 3 levels.

Distracting Strike
You make a melee or ranged attack against an enemy; if you hit, you deal half damage, but the enemy receives Disadvantage on their next attack before the beginning of your next turn.

Aid Ally
You grant an adjacent ally advantage on one roll of their choice before the beginning of your next turn.

Clever Blow
You can add your Intelligence modifier to a melee or ranged attack adding your Intelligence modifier to the attack roll in place of Strength or Dexterity. (Damage modifiers are unchanged.)

Snap Decision
Once per round, you may change the party's tactic as a reaction even when it is not your turn.

List of Tactics
Dig Deep (Inspiration)
You inspire an ally to channel reserved they didn't even know they had, granting them one extra Hit Die. This Hit Die disappears if it isn't spent by the time the warlord takes a long rest. You may target two allies at 3rd level and an additional ally every 3 levels after that; however, you can't inspire yourself with this ability.

Forced March (Inspiration)
Your military discipline encourages your party to move more efficiently, covering long overland distances twice as quickly as normal.

Group Presence (Inspiration)
With your guidance and careful rehearsal, the party acts in careful accord even in social situations. All members of your party gain advantage on Diplomacy, Intimidate, Barter, Bluff, and Insight checks for the next 10 minutes.

Duck and Weave
Your allies may move through enemy squares. In addition, instead of getting advantage on attacks of opportunity against your party, enemies receive disadvantage.

Nova Strike
As an action, the warlord may designate a single target to his allies; all allies deal +1d6 damage against that target. (This damage increases to +2d6 at level 5 and +3d6 at level 8.) The warlord may not designate another target until the first is down or has surrendered.

Back to Back
Enemies receive disadvantage on attacks against a party member who is adjacent to at least one other party member.

Phalanx
Allies adjacent to the warlord (or adjacent to an ally who is) receive advantage on all saving throws and deal +1d6 damage on melee attacks. (Damage increases to +2d6 at 3rd level, +3d6 at 6th, and +4d6 at 9th.)

Stay Focused
The party receives advantage on all Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma-based saving throws as long as the warlord is conscious and within 50 feet. They also add your Charisma modifier to all saves against Fear and Charm effects.

Rush To Strike
The party receives a 10ft bonus to their movement speed.

Blood Harvest
Whenever a member of the party lands a killing blow on an enemy, they receive temporary hit points equal to 1d8+your Cha modifier. (THP are the first hit points lost when the character takes damage, but they disappear after five minutes if they are not lost. THP gained through this tactic do not stack.) This increases to 2d8+Cha at 4th level and 3d8+Cha at 8th level.

Hold Your Ground
Any ally who does not move from their position during their turn receives advantage on their first attack roll that turn.

Fire in the Hole
Through careful drilling that allows spellcasters and their teammates to work in close symphony, your spellcasters have learned how to avoid friendly fire. Allies can choose to exclude targets that fall within the effect of any area spells or effects they cast.

On My Target
Whenever the warlord makes a melee or ranged attack, he can grant one ally the chance to also make a ranged or melee attack against the same target as a reaction.

Don't Die On Me
You allies add your Charisma modifier to all Death Saving Throws. Any allies who start their turn stabilized with a negative hit point total are brought up to zero HP.
 

Unwise

Adventurer
I really like where your going with the design, the bit that appeals to me is the pre-planning tactics during a short rest. I think that really helps the flavour of the class. At this early stage balance and numbers are of no real concern for me so I won't comment on those, the style is important and that seems solid.

One thing that I can foresee being an issue though is that you have to be careful to give people a reason to want to level up. If all of your abilities are mechanical and not numerical, then they remain as good at level 20 as they were at level 1.

For example, "enemy has disadvantage on its attack" as opposed to "enemy does d6 less damage". The latter example, would start off great at low level, but have to be upgraded at higher levels. The former would just be great all the time.

It might seem silly to purposely make abilities that end up needing upgrading, but the fact is people like to see their characters grow and part of that is bigger numbers. Other classes will be dealing with much higher numbers as they level up, sometime even finding old abilities/spells have become redundant.

There is a reason why many MMOs for instance stop using abilities that increase/decrease effects by x% as nerfing an enemy by 10% is just as good at 80th level as it is at 1st level, so it gives the character very little room to grow.

The newer abilities in this latest version address this somewhat, as they are more dice dependant. It is not a big deal, just something to keep in mind.

P.S. Just something to keep in mind with Blood Harvest is that it might want to be a higher level ability. At lower levels in my games, I am finding that at first level, PCs generally kill a bad guy every time they hit. Even a third level bad guy only has 9HP, so a standard at-will 1d8+4 attack will kill him in one shot 50% of the time. Combined with the fact that PCs have so few HP at low level, this could be unacceptably powerful. 1d8+2 THP will likely double a rogue/mage's HP at first level, which is a bit much considering most hits will trigger the effect. After all, a Kobold has 3HP.
 
Last edited:

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
[MENTION=98008]Unwise[/MENTION] - I see your point and agree it could be an issue. The same would seem to be true of the warlock - the only real solution I could see is tiering the tactics so that you have cooler ones accessible at high levels. (Maybe at level 5 you can use Advanced Tactics, Master Tactics at 10, and Grandmaster Tactics at 15.) Some basic tactics could scale to level 20 and others could be phased out.

I might try to divide and adjust these tactics into basic and advanced at some point. I won't even try to guess at level 11+ powers...
 

@ZombieRoboNinja

I cannot xp but this is an absolutely excellent post. I would quibble with the relative balance of a few of the options but what you have created here is a well-above average rendering of the spirit of the class and you have mapped it quite well to 5e's class build framework.

Excellent, excellent job.
 

Zustiur

Explorer
ZombieRoboNinja said:
Here's the rub: in 5e, each class clearly has one primary attribute that they use for all their attacks, spells, etc.
I hadn't picked up on that, and I have to admit, I was thinking in terms of 4E's assumptions about ability scores.

And again, I don't like having both Int AND Cha as required stats, because (1) no other 5e class requires THREE decent stats and (2) I think a low-Cha warlord should be viable. I'd also like a warlord with a mediocre Int and great Cha to be viable, but since the bard and/or paladin can fill the role of "inspirational team player," I'd give that up before the tactical side.

This is where our tastes differ. I think of a warlord as a 'leader of men'. No matter how much Int you have, it takes Cha to get people to follow you. Taking an extreme: 20 Int with 3 Cha. He'll make a truly brilliant tactician, but no-one is going to listen to him. Remember; Charisma doesn't mean 'nice person' or 'friendly' or even 'generally liked'.

To quote 3.5: "Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness." So while charismatic people are often well liked, they aren't always. Your stereotypical foul-mouthed, hard-ass Sergeant needs high charisma to ensure that his Corporals and Privates follow his orders. Respect for military rank and/or bullying will only get you so far, especially when the other people concerned (adventurers) aren't from a military background.

The same applies to other figures of authority - a charismatic policeman will have a much easier time getting the attention and cooperation of civilians than an uncharismatic policeman will; even if the charismatic one is the less intelligent of the pair.

As far as strength is concerned; I look at the warlord as being on par with the cleric or rogue. Str isn't a primary for either really (4E STR clerics not-withstanding). Clerics have always gone for wisdom, while rogues favour dex. Yet both have often spent time fighting along-side the fighter in the front line. If my understanding of bounded accuracy is correct; Rogues and Clerics will have a slow 'BAB' progression as well as lower strength, yet still contribute as melee combatants. If that is the case, then I see no reason why the warlord cannot be similar, perhaps with a fighter's BAB, but lower Str.

ManBearCat said:
I cannot xp but this is an absolutely excellent post
I've got you covered.
 

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