D&D 5E Class Tier List 2.0, SCAG+ Xanathars

[Ashrym]

Sword bards can also do that. It's another option.

Battle Magic is level 14 iirc.

That's probably to far away.

Sword bards don't get the weapon proficiency to pull off GWM.

 

[Zardnaar]

Sword bards don't get the weapon proficiency to pull off GWM.

I know, the feats good not the class.

Under the default array you will have to give up something that matters to use a greatsword. You can only wear medium armor so take your pick from dexterity, con or charisma.

With higher rolled stats you can make a decent valor bard but it's more mad IMHO.

In my OP I said specific builds and higher stats can push some archetypes up. Valor bard is decent with stats of 14,14,16,16 or higher.

 

[Esker]

I know, the feats good not the class.

Under the default array you will have to give up something that matters to use a greatsword. You can only wear medium armor so take your pick from dexterity, con or charisma.

With higher rolled stats you can make a decent valor bard but it's more mad IMHO.

I think you're both missing the main use case of being a valor bard, which is being a support-focused character with good AC. Weapons are a red herring.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think you're both missing the main use case of being a valor bard, which is being a support-focused character with good AC. Weapons are a red herring.

I'm aware of that, but the lore bards gonna be better on that role and is more likely to get played as a wizard type so isn't to likely to be near the front lines.

What's dumb even with higher rolled stats the lore bard can go Dex based steal gfb and spiritual guardians and have a similar ac and do the support thing and probably outfight the valor bard.

Using dual wielding it will outdamage a greatweapon valor bard and you're comparing a valor bard with feat to other bards no feat.

 

[Ashrym]

I know, the feats good not the class.

It's your OP that says you are taking feats into consideration. Valor is the way to go for that good feat.

Under the default array you will have to give up something that matters to use a greatsword. You can only wear medium armor so take your pick from dexterity, con or charisma.

With higher rolled stats you can make a decent valor bard but it's more mad IMHO.

That's why I said it's a bit more MAD but the only difference is in stopping investing in DEX that a swords bard continues to build and taking STR instead.

I think you're both missing the main use case of being a valor bard, which is being a support-focused character with good AC. Weapons are a red herring.

I can do both. It's hard to call weapons a red herring when weapon benefits apply at every level college abilities are gained. Martial weapons, extra attack, cast and attack.

Neglecting support and thinking the option is about damage is a mistake, but adding some damge isn't.

I'm aware of that, but the lore bards gonna be better on that role and is more likely to get played as a wizard type so isn't to likely to be near the front lines.

What's dumb even with higher rolled stats the lore bard can go Dex based steal gfb and spiritual guardians and have a similar ac and do the support thing and probably outfight the valor bard.

No, because extra attack is better than cantrips earlier and battle magic is better later.

A valor bard can pick up GFB and spiritual weapon at 10th level then swap out spiritual weapon at 14th when battle magic takes up the bonus action.

Lore bards are not good damage compared to weapon users.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's your OP that says you are taking feats into consideration. Valor is the way to go for that good feat.



That's why I said it's a bit more MAD but the only difference is in stopping investing in DEX that a swords bard continues to build and taking STR instead.



I can do both. It's hard to call weapons a red herring when weapon benefits apply at every level college abilities are gained. Martial weapons, extra attack, cast and attack.

Neglecting support and thinking the option is about damage is a mistake, but adding some damge isn't.



No, because extra attack is better than cantrips earlier and battle magic is better later.

A valor bard can pick up GFB and spiritual weapon at 10th level then swap out spiritual weapon at 14th when battle magic takes up the bonus action.

Lore bards are not good damage compared to weapon users.

Once again aware if that it's tier 1-4, valor bard takes a while to get going.

Lore bard can get the same spells plus spiritual guardians and mage armor. AC 15 vs 17, and war magic is long way off.

Otherwise I agree valor bards are better latter. Much like clerics as a general rule I think bards should focus on primary caster.

Lore bard can take magic initiate mage armor and two sorcerer cantrips instead of gwm and then pick spiritual guardians and weapon level 6.

And yes with higher scores valor bard starts looking a lot more attractive. My one used shield master and expertise in athletics.

 

[Ashrym]

Valor bard does take a while to get going. Pointing out that it's tier 1 and then mentioning the lore bard 6th ability contradicts the fact that it's tier 1.

Your human lore bard who takes cantrips still fails at damage compared to weapon users. That doesn't matter what kind of weapon user in the 1st tier.

My point started with a comparison between valor and swords bards that you seem to be refuting by ignoring the point and bringing up lore bards? How does what a lore bard can or cannot do have any relevance to the fact that GWM is an option for valor bards unavailable to swords bards?

Valor bards continue to be relevant because they have better weapon options and not just shields, and combat inspiration supports the party better than flourishes. That's the original point of dispute.

 

[Zardnaar]

Valor bard does take a while to get going. Pointing out that it's tier 1 and then mentioning the lore bard 6th ability contradicts the fact that it's tier 1.

Your human lore bard who takes cantrips still fails at damage compared to weapon users. That doesn't matter what kind of weapon user in the 1st tier.

My point started with a comparison between valor and swords bards that you seem to be refuting by ignoring the point and bringing up lore bards? How does what a lore bard can or cannot do have any relevance to the fact that GWM is an option for valor bards unavailable to swords bards?

Valor bards continue to be relevant because they have better weapon options and not just shields, and combat inspiration supports the party better than flourishes. That's the original point of dispute.

Sword bard can take the twf style and feat.

Uses two rapiers. ACs one higher than greatsword user.

Default array 14 Dex, con, 16 Cha. You can swap charisma and Dex around if you like.

Valor bard what stat are you cutting to squeeze in strength?

 

[Esker]

It's hard to call weapons a red herring when weapon benefits apply at every level college abilities are gained. Martial weapons, extra attack, cast and attack.

I call it a red herring precisely because all those things tend to lead one down a weapon-focused path (things like taking weapon feats), which is a mistake, IMO. That's what a red herring is.

Neglecting support and thinking the option is about damage is a mistake, but adding some damge isn't.

But you're not talking about just adding some damage, you're talking about devoting a whole feat and tossing out 2 AC to add damage. That sounds like neglecting support, if you ask me. To focus on support, you want to maximize CHA, take a feat to help maintain concentration, probably take Alert... Where do you fit GWM?

 

[Esker]

I'm aware of that, but the lore bards gonna be better on that role and is more likely to get played as a wizard type so isn't to likely to be near the front lines.

It's campaign/DM dependent, I think. If the enemies are intelligent, they'll target the caster in the back, so having better self-defense serves your support role. Plus, if you don't have to use cutting words for yourself, you can be handing out more inspiration dice, which for a valor bard are the same dice as their bonus option, so they become more versatile.

What's dumb even with higher rolled stats the lore bard can go Dex based steal gfb and spiritual guardians and have a similar ac and do the support thing and probably outfight the valor bard.

Even with magic initiate for mage armor and maxed DEX, the lore bard can get to 18. If the valor bard takes the feat you spent for mage armor and takes medium armor master, they would have a 20, without putting anything into DEX after chargen.