Classes and Roles: supply and demand

[Deverash]

I think the controller role is still the most difficult role to play well, which tends to make it less played. You have to select your powers correctly, to have something of use in most situations, and, honestly, you have to turn away from dealing straight damage. Damage is good, but strikers just do it better.

Controllers are about keeping the enemy from doing what they want to do. That's not what a lot of people like to do, it not flashy, but it can be effective.

The lack of a controller is easily made up for. But a well played controller, like a well run leader, can make the party shine.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Well that is quite mysterious, and I wonder why it's the case. However, Wizards has stated dozens of times in articles and whatnot that everything is core. In addition, here's a quote directly from the FRPG [page 5]:

(Emphasis mine.)

Interesting, that does seem to be at odds with how they've categorized the FR books on their product list, not to mention that the covers of the books themselves - as seen on the WotC product pages, at least - label them as supplements.

I don't have a problem if people want to exclude certain material from their games (well, actually I sometimes do, but that's not the discussion here), but it just irks me when people say "core only" after Wizards has gone to so much trouble to redefine core to mean "everything we make".

If they truly are trying to redefine the meaning of core in the way you describe then I think it makes it a somewhat meaningless term when used in relation to their products; I think it would be unfortunate: there is enough cause for contention when discussing things without words being redefined in a way that is contrary to the existing definition.

In any case, it's probably about time for a thread fork if you want to keep discussing this.

 

[Rechan]

If it's available for RPGA play, it's core. Says in the rules. And FRPG is allowed.

 

[Astragoth]

My group consists of the following:

air genasi swordmage
earth genasi fighter
dragonborn warlord
half-elf warlock
eladrin wizard

all seem to have fun with there class/race choices.
I always tell the group they shouldn't be playing their character if it isn't fun.
We've been playing for 7 levels and several months now, and we all looked at the phb2, but nobody wants to say goodbye to their current characters.

 

[Starfox]

Seems that a lot of groups don't have controllers. In 5man Content of warcraft people stopped caring about control when individual monsters became too weak or when the defender was sticky enough to keep all of them on him and tough enough to be able to take the beating. The reason why people would want to group with a controller was dungeons that had very dangerous monsters in their pulls that had to somehow be restrained from action. Maybe the same thing will happen with 4E if MM2 monsters hit harder and thus controlling them is better than tanking them.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that controllers have too little control to help much. No serious at-will control, and no lasting control effects. Boss fight tend to be drawn-out affairs.

 

[Starfox]

Very few controllers in any of these groups. The wizard layer in my group switched to Swordmage and felt it was a big Win - maybe Controllers are teh suckz in 4E?

Sorry, never gave my full group roster.

First Trial Campaign:
Human Wizard
Human Fighter (guardian)
Dwarf Cleric, mixed (me)
Elf Ranger (archer)
Dwarf Warlock (infernal iir)

First serious campaign group:
(This campaign uses house-ruled humans that are slightly better than norm)

Eladrin Wizard
Human Fighter (guardian)
Human Rogue (ranged dagger)
Human Warlock (star)
Satyr (homebrew race) Bard

Come people changed characters or retrofitted them to other classes; this is what we have now:

Human Sorcerer (storm)
Human Swordmage (assault)
Human Rogue (ranged dagger)
Human Warlock (star)
Satyr (homebrew race) Bard

 

[Tuft]

Human Sorcerer (storm)
Human Swordmage (assault)
Human Rogue (ranged dagger)
Human Warlock (star)
Satyr (homebrew race) Bard

Um, unless Velicia has changed race since I last saw her, the Swordmage is still an Eladrin...

 

[Jack99]

We have

Human fighter
Elf cleric
Human warlock
Human rogue
Tiefling wizard
(and if you add the two guys who come occassionally)
elf ranger
human warlock

Yeah, everybody loves a striker

 

[ExploderWizard]

The invoker is about as sexy as a geriatric ex-librarian with contacts. She may have some good bits but she's still saggy and boring.

How can you say this? The invoker is full of awesome for one very important reason:

When another party member asks if you are going to DO anything you can just say " No. The angels will just take care of it."

 

[TwoSix]

Seems that a lot of groups don't have controllers. In 5man Content of warcraft people stopped caring about control when individual monsters became too weak or when the defender was sticky enough to keep all of them on him and tough enough to be able to take the beating. The reason why people would want to group with a controller was dungeons that had very dangerous monsters in their pulls that had to somehow be restrained from action. Maybe the same thing will happen with 4E if MM2 monsters hit harder and thus controlling them is better than tanking them.

I have a theory that, similar to WoW, 1 controller (AoEer) is sort of useful, but can really shine in a party built around control (AoE). Say a party with a fighter, cleric, wizard, druid, invoker. No strikers at all, but boatloads of AoE and control. It works on the idea that AoE powers tend to do more damage if you hit 3 or more enemies, and with all your damage dealers concentrating on hitting multiple enemies, they won't be able to spread out enough to avoid all of them. Multiple zones of control, multiple summons and conjurations.