Classes need to be ready to go from the beginning

[Magus Coeruleus]

To make helping others more "active" it could be fun if a certain leader-type ability actually has you throw a d4, d6 or whatever when your comrade takes an action and you add that to their roll. Same average result as +X bonus but it could feel more proactive because right there and then, on that action, the impact you had is clear. This could be a neat immediate action to have 1x/encounter as a Leader type.

 

[Grog]

To make helping others more "active" it could be fun if a certain leader-type ability actually has you throw a d4, d6 or whatever when your comrade takes an action and you add that to their roll. Same average result as +X bonus but it could feel more proactive because right there and then, on that action, the impact you had is clear. This could be a neat immediate action to have 1x/encounter as a Leader type.

I really like this idea!

 

[IceFractal]

More use of immediate actions in general would be a good things for support types. For instance, take healing. Really, there are three types of healing:

1) Out-of-combat healing. Not exciting, but it doesn't need to be, and for that matter, you really just need a wand and someone who can use it.

2) Critical healing. Stopping someone from dying. This has the potential to be very dramatic, but is currently hard to pull off - you have to buffer people in advance because it's hard to reach them in time.

3) Bonus healing. Pretty much any other healing in combat. You do as much as you're able to without compromising your other goals. Potentially important, but dull - it shouldn't prevent you from doing more interesting things.


And it seems like these could be improved by distinguishing them. Bonus healing could an extra effect of striking a hit, much like the Crusader does now. And critical healing could be based around spells like Close Wounds - immmediate action, ranged, so you can directly administer healing to prevent a death-blow on your allies, at the moment it happens.

 

[danzig138]

When everyone gets really excited because you just helped the whole party then its awesome!!

I fear this is the kind of direction they are going to take with the game (another reason I won't be getting it if so). This is lame, and multiple exclamation points won't change it. My players get really excited about things like this without the crutch of additional mechanical bonuses. I've disagreed with the repeated claims about the sense of player entitlement that I see bandied about all over the place, but Im starting to lose some of that doubt. Ah well, enjoy your games anyway.

 

[Merlion]

I fear this is the kind of direction they are going to take with the game (another reason I won't be getting it if so). This is lame, and multiple exclamation points won't change it. My players get really excited about things like this without the crutch of additional mechanical bonuses. I've disagreed with the repeated claims about the sense of player entitlement that I see bandied about all over the place, but Im starting to lose some of that doubt. Ah well, enjoy your games anyway.

So...players arent entitled to have fun?

Edit: and I must say I also rather resent your refering to other people's enjoyment as "lame", and the insinutation that having the things you enjoy doing supported by mechanics is a "crutch".


Since its basically the entirety of the purpose of having mechanics.

 

[Stalker0]

My players get really excited about things like this without the crutch of additional mechanical bonuses.

They may not need it, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't enjoy it. Part of the game is about teamwork, and what's wrong with mechanics to go along with the flavor of good teamwork play?

 

[Stalker0]

To make helping others more "active" it could be fun if a certain leader-type ability actually has you throw a d4, d6 or whatever when your comrade takes an action and you add that to their roll. Same average result as +X bonus but it could feel more proactive because right there and then, on that action, the impact you had is clear. This could be a neat immediate action to have 1x/encounter as a Leader type.

You could have an ability to gives 1d4/2 levels or something, and you can choose to add those d4s on to d20 rolls or something. That way the support has some decisions and resource management to do, which can be fun.

 

[Remathilis]

. I've disagreed with the repeated claims about the sense of player entitlement that I see bandied about all over the place, but I'm starting to lose some of that doubt. Ah well, enjoy your games anyway.

Player Entitlement? I'm curious to know what you mean.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

I think the Hunter gets really effective from levels 4 onward, but from my experiences, I am beginning to think Iron Heroes is a really, really badly developed game. That the designer of Iron Heroes is the lead developer of D&D 4e worries me.

As I understand it, Mike got the job with Wizards in the middle of development on IH. In order to take the job he had to stop working on the project. So the end-product is quite unpolished, to say the least. I don't think this is going to be an issue with 4e.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I'll chime in to say that IH is an unfinished game. Badly developed is not my opinion (although the fact that I DM an IH game probably puts my opinion in the "severely biased" camp).

The hunter is indeed one of the "rough edges" in IH... and really the only one that didn't get an overhaul in the Revised version. (The other problem classes, the armiger and weapon master, got some nice rewrites.) I don't think it's a good example of how classes in IH generally play, since its primary shtick has nothing to do with its class abilities and everything to do with single-ability focus (Int) and feat exploitation. A hunter with Weapon Bond (Int) and appropriate masteries in Beast Lore, Tactics of the Mind, and Warleader (as well as the Analyze Opponents feat from the IH Players' Companion) is a scary, scary character. As you noted, Merric, it can't be played until about 4th level.

Now, as to where this fits in with D&D: I agree entirely. Every class needs to be fun as of 1st level. To use "fixing the hunter" as an example: I'd give it three token abilities at 1st level (like the berserker gets) and make at least one of those a personal buff that allows the hunter to pull off something cool on his own behalf in combat.