Classic module campaign with an interesting conundrum

[Talath]

A week ago, I started up a new D&D 3.5 campaign, using classic D&D modules for the adventures. The reason I do this is because unlike many players, I didn't play D&D when 1st edition was the thing at the time, and I never got to play through the old classic modules; this is my way of living through those times, sort of; of reclaiming some nostalgia. Anyway, these are the modules I have lined up.

B1 - In Search of the Unknown
B2 - Keep on the Borderlands
B4 - The Lost City
G1-2-3: Against the Giants
D1-2: Descent into the Depths of the Earth
D3: Vault of the Drow
Q1: Queen of the Demonweb Pits
S1: The Tomb of Horros (possibly)

My philosophy and plan of execution of these modules is thus: whatever the module calls for, I use straight out of the 3rd edition books with as little modification as possible. So for example, if a module calls for a room with 10 trolls, there will be 10 trolls in there out of my 3.5 Monster Manual. The only thing that presents a problem: Lolth.

The demon queen of spiders has experienced alot of change since her appearance in D3. She is now a deity, and this is a problem. I have a few options of how to handle her:

1. D&DG Conversion (the rat bastard way): Use her stats from Deities and Demigods, with 3.5 modifications, and run her. Obviously, as a god, she will cream the party. Even if I used her avatar stats, she will still kill them without much difficulty.

2. 1st to 3rd Conversion (not so mean way): Convert her stats to 3rd out of the module. Most satisfactory probably, but goes against my module philosophy. I have no problem going against the philosophy if I have to, but if I can do it without going against it and have it be satisfactory, I will.

I'd like to hear suggestions of how to handle this. It's pretty early in the campaign to worry, but better today than last minute. Your feedback is always appreciated.

 

[Treebore]

Don't worry, if you run it as "straight" as it sounds like you are going to they won't even make it to G1. The 3.5 monsters are seriously more powerful, in most cases, than they were in 1e. Especially Trolls and giants. I'll be surprised if they make it out of the Borderlands module.

I own everything you have listed except B4 (I don't remember having it anyway), if you want to talk about converting it go to the conversions forum here on ENWorld and several of us ENWorlders will help you. At least I will, anyway.

 

[JustKim]

Q1, are you sure? Have you actually looked through that one? I think I would only run it if I wanted to scare someone away from D&D forever, and looking at the rest of your list I get the impression that's not the purpose.

Getting rid of Q1 brings you one step closer to a workable Lolth, and also saves a lot of groaning and walking out from the silliness that is Lolth's spider ship. A climactic end to the adventure series it is not.

 

[frankthedm]

remove the 3rd edtion spells from the campain that did not exist for the edition the moduals were made in.

 

[Talath]

Bump

 

[JohnBrown]

Talath,

I am currently doing something similar to what you are proposing. I wouldn't worry about Lolth at this point. You characters have a LONG way to go before they encounter her. By the time your characters get close, you will better be able to judge what your party is capable of handling. Be aware, there are some inherent problems in running the GDQ modules in 3.5:

Problem 1. Most of those adventures (at least G1-2-3) were intended for 6 to 8 characters. If you convert them straight out of the MM, your party is going to need to be the same size. Otherwise, they are likely to just get creamed unless they are very high level. G1 in in particular.

The group I DM for consists of six people (2 fighter/paladins, 1 paladin, 1 cleric, 1 sorcerer, 1 arcane archer) They were all 10th level when they hit G1. However, before they assaulted the place they took a lot of time scouting the place out first (clairvoyance, etc.). Even well armed with information, the battles were still touch and go.

I recommend the following to anyone wanting to run this adventure "straight":

A. Figure the giant stats without arms or armor (at least for the character's first foray). The giants are at home after all and not expecting the assault.

B. Don't play the giants very smart (at least at first). Not that hill giants are all that brilliant to begin with, but as long the party doesn't do anything really stupid, don't trap them to get slaughtered. If they want to escape to try a later assault, let them.

When my group went through it, on the party's first foray, I had the giants attack with non-subdual damage unarmed attacks ( -4 off their attack rolls). This reduced the amount of damage they inflicted and reduced their chance to hit, which really made a difference between dead characters and severely injured characters. By the time they retired to their little base-camp, the party had inflicted enough losses on the giants so that they could deal with the armed, and now cunning survivors.

Once they completed G1 they had earned enough experience that I could run G2 and G3 pretty much "straight". Although I used the Epic level handbook version of Eclavdra in G3.


Problem 2. After you they get done with the giants, your party will likely blow through most of the D modules without much trouble. With a couple of exceptions, most those encounters rely on large numbers of "small" creatures. Unfortunately your characters will be 14+ level and even large numbers of trogs, bugbears and low-level drow just aren't that challenging to such a party. While good encounters for getting rid of your party's excess resources, your players won't be all that happy with the experience they earn (which will be zero a surprisingly large amount of the time).

Only a gross mishandling of the Kuo-toa by my party has made this interesting so far. They still managed to defeat them, however. They were nearly side-tracked from their "mission" chasing after the survivors.

My party is currently trying to figure out how to get into the Egg of Lolth and are all 16th-17th level. I plan on using a "pumped up" version of the aspect of Lolth from the Miniatures Handbook for that particular encounter.

By the time they get to the end of Q1 they should all be 20+ level and I will be better able judge what to use then. I hoping to use the avatar stats though.

Anyway, I hope this helps,

John

 

[Talath]

Talath,

I am currently doing something similar to what you are proposing. I wouldn't worry about Lolth at this point. You characters have a LONG way to go before they encounter her. By the time your characters get close, you will better be able to judge what your party is capable of handling. Be aware, there are some inherent problems in running the GDQ modules in 3.5:

Problem 1. Most of those adventures (at least G1-2-3) were intended for 6 to 8 characters. If you convert them straight out of the MM, your party is going to need to be the same size. Otherwise, they are likely to just get creamed unless they are very high level. G1 in in particular.

The group I DM for consists of six people (2 fighter/paladins, 1 paladin, 1 cleric, 1 sorcerer, 1 arcane archer) They were all 10th level when they hit G1. However, before they assaulted the place they took a lot of time scouting the place out first (clairvoyance, etc.). Even well armed with information, the battles were still touch and go.

I recommend the following to anyone wanting to run this adventure "straight":

A. Figure the giant stats without arms or armor (at least for the character's first foray). The giants are at home after all and not expecting the assault.

B. Don't play the giants very smart (at least at first). Not that hill giants are all that brilliant to begin with, but as long the party doesn't do anything really stupid, don't trap them to get slaughtered. If they want to escape to try a later assault, let them.

When my group went through it, on the party's first foray, I had the giants attack with non-subdual damage unarmed attacks ( -4 off their attack rolls). This reduced the amount of damage they inflicted and reduced their chance to hit, which really made a difference between dead characters and severely injured characters. By the time they retired to their little base-camp, the party had inflicted enough losses on the giants so that they could deal with the armed, and now cunning survivors.

Once they completed G1 they had earned enough experience that I could run G2 and G3 pretty much "straight". Although I used the Epic level handbook version of Eclavdra in G3.


Problem 2. After you they get done with the giants, your party will likely blow through most of the D modules without much trouble. With a couple of exceptions, most those encounters rely on large numbers of "small" creatures. Unfortunately your characters will be 14+ level and even large numbers of trogs, bugbears and low-level drow just aren't that challenging to such a party. While good encounters for getting rid of your party's excess resources, your players won't be all that happy with the experience they earn (which will be zero a surprisingly large amount of the time).

Only a gross mishandling of the Kuo-toa by my party has made this interesting so far. They still managed to defeat them, however. They were nearly side-tracked from their "mission" chasing after the survivors.

My party is currently trying to figure out how to get into the Egg of Lolth and are all 16th-17th level. I plan on using a "pumped up" version of the aspect of Lolth from the Miniatures Handbook for that particular encounter.

By the time they get to the end of Q1 they should all be 20+ level and I will be better able judge what to use then. I hoping to use the avatar stats though.

Anyway, I hope this helps,

John

Thats very good chunk of advice. I didn't consider the fact that by the time they get to D1-2 and D3, most of the small monsters won't be a challenge. You have given me lots of insight, and it really helps. Thank you for your reply.

 

[S'mon]

Q1 Lolth should be ca CR 22 I'd say, like the other demon princes in BoVD. 3e-D&DG-deity Lolth is 2e/Forgotten Realms/Driz'zty-munchkin-style Lolth and bears no relation to the original conception of her as a demon princess, so I would ignore that or treat the Q1 version as an 'Aspect' if you must.

 

[S'mon]

For the hordes of small creatures, you might want to reduce numbers, but you should definitely include plenty of classed & levelled ones amongst the common kuo-tuo et al; I use 50% 1st-level (base MM), 25% 2nd, 12.5% 3rd, etc - generic stats for each level are fine. Also use squads of mid-level (6th or so) bodyguards defending the enemy commanders, who should be around 10th-12th level at the level your PCs should be.

Personally I wouldn't weaken the giants in G1-3, just play them fairly dumb & wait until your PCs can handle them, around 8th-10th level with cohorts a strong PC group should be ok I'd think. I've found that a PC party with 'stoneskin' on can wade through giants pretty easily.

 

[Carl]

D20 Conversions for D1-2 or D3?

Does anyone know where I can get a d20 conversion for the original D1-2 "Descent into the Depths" or D3 "Vault of the Drow" modules from TSR? If anyone has a copy, please let me know. Many thanks!! Carl