Cleave and AoOs

[jerichothebard]

Sorry, wrong... the AoO interrupts the current turn in which it was provoked... see SRD.


Mike

Alright, let me restate for clarity:

Cleaves happen during the same time-span as my turn, while I am attacking.

Attacks of opportunity happen during the same time-span as your turn, while you are attacking or moving or drinking a potion or otherwise distracted.





At this point, I have to concede that the rules, technically, don't prohibit the two from occuring together.

But I don't think they should, and the above reasons are why.


jtb

 

[RigaMortus]

Heya:

Does Cleave require one to drop an opponent? If so, the Azer wasn't an opponent (of the fire giant), right? So, Cleave shouldn't've fired off?

This actually relates to that bucket of snails thing from way back. Snails aren't opponents. If they are, then my character declares air molecules to be opponents. Ooh, I dropped an air molecule, I'll take a cleave.

Take care,
Dreeble

Hmmm, that hadn't really occured to me (or the rest of the group)... Guess our ally would have been alive after all... at least for the round...

 

[jerichothebard]

I get what your saying, that because an attack happens when it is not your turn you lose some amount of skill with that attack. I don’t agree but assuming that I did, where do you draw the line? All combat feats are negated? Or just the ones that you chose? What is basis for chosing? Base Attack Bonus represents skill gained through character growth. Would you apply +0 BAB? This is don’t follow from the very way that they have you make an AoO. They have you take it at your highest BAB. This leads a DM to believe that this attack is made with all the skill that you have learned along the way. I was unaware that the fact that it is not your turn negates feats. So then would Imp. Trip be negated also? What about things like deep impact? Can you explain your position more? I really would like to know how you can up with this?

That isn't what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that, you shouldn't be able to use a feat that is intended to be used during your turn if it isn't your turn! You can't cast a spell as an AoO. You can't drink a potion. You shouldn't be able to draw a weapon on an AoO - even with quickdraw - or loose a shield. You can't take a 5' adjustment during an AoO. These are all combat related actions, all requiring that same skill in combat that is also represented by BAB - and feats. Why, then, should cleave be different?

Normal attacks/round are due to you pressing the attack - as you get better, you learn to press the attack harder, and get more opportunities to actually score on them - thus, you get more attacks/round.

IMO, an Attack of Opportunity isn't a full-on combat attack - it shouldn't follow those rules. It is a small opening in someone's defenses, and you stick your sword through it as they pass by. They are created by the target, not the attacker - YOU do something stupid and let your guard down, and then I smack you in the face for it.

Basically, I realize that the rules don't prohibit it from occuring. But I don't think it should.

 

[mikebr99]

That isn't what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that, you shouldn't be able to use a feat that is intended to be used during your turn if it isn't your turn! You can't cast a spell as an AoO.

Reactive Counterspell....

And, I think there was a EPIC feat that also allowed casting via an AoO... but I could be wrong.

YMMV


Mike

 

[Camarath]

Alright, let me restate for clarity:

Cleaves happen during the same time-span as my turn, while I am attacking.

Attacks of opportunity happen during the same time-span as your turn, while you are attacking or moving or drinking a potion or otherwise distracted.

Are you saying that my attacks happen during my 6 second turn wile everyone else just stands there and during other peoples turns I just stand there for 6x(the numbers of other creatures in combat) seconds?

It is my understanding that everyone acts in the same 6 seconds and that the initiative system is meant merely to facilitate working out those 6 seconds of combat in an easy and approachable manner rather than implying an actual chronological separation between different creature's action in the same round. So if I am correct, wile I am attacking my foes they are attacking me (or preforming what ever action they are entitled to) rather than standing there, in the abstract at least.

 

[RigaMortus]

Alright, let me restate for clarity:

Cleaves happen during the same time-span as my turn, while I am attacking.

jtb

Again, I can't find that anywhere in the description of Cleave. The only time "cleave happens" is when you drop an opponent as it is stated in the Cleave description.

 

[Nail]

... my character declares air molecules to be opponents. Ooh, I dropped an air molecule, I'll take a cleave.

I'd love to see that.

"Wait...are you saying that if I drop an inanimate object, I get a cleave? Great! I drop my pants........wait, maybe that's not a good idea....."

 

[Storminator]

Heya:

Does Cleave require one to drop an opponent? If so, the Azer wasn't an opponent (of the fire giant), right? So, Cleave shouldn't've fired off?

This actually relates to that bucket of snails thing from way back. Snails aren't opponents. If they are, then my character declares air molecules to be opponents. Ooh, I dropped an air molecule, I'll take a cleave.

Take care,
Dreeble

And all the air molecules declare you an opponent. All of them flee your mighty sword. You get AoO as all the air rushes out of your lungs and away from you at top speed...


PS

 

[Elvinis75]

A reasonable opinion. I look at the big picture and see things a bit differently.

D&D has a number of unusual mechanical conventions that purposefully reduce variability in combat to "unrealistic" levels. That is the primary purpose of how HPs scale, frex. 3.5 took this further than any previous edition by toning down instakill effects. The mechanics have been designed give combat a "more or less" predictable pace.

OTOH there are also a number of cinematic style maneuvers and abilities that a designed to spice things up and make combat tactically interesting instead of an overly predictable slog through opposing HP pools.

Broadly speaking sometimes these two goals conflict, usually they do not. When they conflict is when game designer and/or DM judgement is necessary.

IMHO, it is better to remove CoO from the game. My reasoning is that the small but real possibility of a sudden cascade of PC deaths outweighs the advantages of strict consistency to a cinematic option. It has absolutely nothing to do with a failure to understand of Cleave works. I am looking a the big picture and making a judgement call. YMMV.

Sure it is always possible that the monsters get really lucky but in that scenerio that you are describing it seems that a fireball could have just as easily picked off the group. I think that there are other ways that as a DM you can prevent TPK without changing the rules. Use the rules but have the monster act with less than 100% efficiency for that round. I think that there are other possibilities available to you.

 

[Nail]

That isn't what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that, you shouldn't be able to use a feat that is intended to be used during your turn if it isn't your turn! .....

Sorry, jerichothebard, but this is not what the rules say or imply. You're making things up "out of whole cloth" here.

There's always "Rule 0", of course, but this is hardly a rules arguement.