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Cleave - Automatic hits on 2nd target?
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DracoSuave
First Post
Ok I'm almost convinced...
I'm just sayin'... Cleave isn't even broken when the enemy brings his own bag of rats FOR you.
And while we're on the subject of a bag of rats...
Rat swarms take half damage from melee attacks. Cleave is a melee attack so if you decide to use a bag of rats as a cleave-enabler at a level where it is a threat and is permissible, then you'll end up getting attacked by a thing that can attack you as a free action at the beginning of your own turn that you're not doing enough damage to to seriously threaten.
And if you decide instead to use a bag of rats to attack another bag of rats, the cleaved bag of rats gets to halve your cleave damage.
I'm just saying Bag of Rats + Cleave is not good for you.
EDIT: Druids better get a power called Bag o' Rats.
filthgrinder
First Post
Well, I think the "real" problem here is the need to break the paradigm of "hit points = physical health". I think it's important to remember that 4e uses hit point to express more than just physical health. It is health + morale + luck + destiny + boldness + any number of other factors. This is why anyone can dig down and use a second wind to come soaring back into battle. This is why a Warlord can shout out words of inspiration and courage and give hit points back to his allies.
Now, let's use that framework in this instance. You cleave right through an enemy with a thunderous blow. Thats scarey and chips away at anyone adjecant to witness your unstoppable fury. You smashed into your target and followed through into a monster right next to him. The secondary target feels the remaining power of the blow. Thats got to weaken morale a bit.
With a 30 Str, Cleave is going to do +10 damage. You've basically got the strength of a demigod, swinging through one creature and into you. If 10 points is enough to put you down, you are going down as it is.
More importantly, as mentioned, this is D&D, this is NOT an unattended video game world where a system has been set up and basically left to it's own devices. You, as a DM, are running the encounter, you don't have to follow some sort of dogmatic script. Don't have your big baddy stand right next to easy to hit minions. Just like if you are throwing a bag of minions at a party, try not to have them all group of in a way that a burst spell takes out half the baddies... unless that is what you want.
Minions aren't valid threats. If players are expect to be able to hack their way through 6 groups of enemies in a day, the least of those enemies is not a valid threat. Certainly not the last couple of them in an encounter, outnumbered and ready to die en masse to a single flick of the wizard's finger, or if the dragonborn yawns in their direction.
Oh wait, applying common sense to rules. Bad me.
"Valid threat", as used in the text, means that they can use up some of the party's resources, not that they're in danger of dying.
A level-appropriate minion can hit you, and do HP damage, so yes it can use up some of your resources. This is especially true since you're never going to fight a minion unless it's as part of an encounter; even if three minions die from one use of an encounter power, they've served their purpose.
I would argue that reading the term "valid threat" in context how it's used in the text is "applying common sense to the rules", but that's just my opinion.
If someone wanted to houserule that minons weren't a "valid threat" I don't think it would break anything, I just don't see the point.
A level-appropriate minion can hit you, and do HP damage, so yes it can use up some of your resources. This is especially true since you're never going to fight a minion unless it's as part of an encounter; even if three minions die from one use of an encounter power, they've served their purpose.
I would argue that reading the term "valid threat" in context how it's used in the text is "applying common sense to the rules", but that's just my opinion.
If someone wanted to houserule that minons weren't a "valid threat" I don't think it would break anything, I just don't see the point.
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4th more then many previous editions needs a bit of a paradigm shift. Cleave is not hacking into a big bad and the massive swing smacks the dude next to him. For one thing that is a newb way to fight that will get you dead. Watch master fencers. They do not take big swings.
Cleave is the swing at the skilled opponent that nicks him. You then flick the blood on the end of your blade into the eyes of his minion distracting him right before you run said minion through. You grin at your opponent. "One down. Do you think you will last much longer?"
Cleave is the swing at the skilled opponent that nicks him. You then flick the blood on the end of your blade into the eyes of his minion distracting him right before you run said minion through. You grin at your opponent. "One down. Do you think you will last much longer?"
I think many of the examples of how cleave is only a small amount of damage assumes the creature is at full hit points. Take the dragon example, the party has tangled with the dragon and his minions for several hard fought rounds. The rogue gets underneath the critter and stabs it hard. The dragon lets out a blood curdling roar and looks skyward to make a retreat. Our big buff fighter has one last action as the mighty beast spreads its wings.
Now, should he A) take a shot at the dragon were he has, lets say, a 15% chance to hit, or b) take a shot at the minion near him where he has a 30% chance to hit and then do some minor, but now extremely significant damage, to the dragon?
I guess there are holes in the description. Maybe the DM shouldnt clue his players in when their nemisis is near the end. Perhaps the dragon should have retreated much earlier. Still, this particular situation would bring the question into a different focus.
Quick edit...The silly fighter took Tide of Iron instead of Reaping Strike as their second AtWill.
Now, should he A) take a shot at the dragon were he has, lets say, a 15% chance to hit, or b) take a shot at the minion near him where he has a 30% chance to hit and then do some minor, but now extremely significant damage, to the dragon?
I guess there are holes in the description. Maybe the DM shouldnt clue his players in when their nemisis is near the end. Perhaps the dragon should have retreated much earlier. Still, this particular situation would bring the question into a different focus.
Quick edit...The silly fighter took Tide of Iron instead of Reaping Strike as their second AtWill.
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if you intend for an opponent to run away you'd best plan for running away long before it's down to the point where even the smallest bit of damage will kill it, or you'll be finding that the PC's will find a way to do that tiny bit of damage and no more running away for mr dragon. Having a minion still alive when the dragon is down to 3-7 hp is pretty unlikely as well, especially if the fighter has had cleave all along, those minions should have already been toasted.
The Dragon couldnt run away yet because his foot was stuck. The minions just broke through the barrier that the party had placed to stop them from swinging the tide of battle early on. I guess my point would be that there are certainly situations when attacking a secondary critter would be the best course of action. Its definately easy to get around from a DM perspective, but what about in a tourney?
his foot was stuck...
I can see minions entering at the last second, but again, if you're going to run away, NPC, PC or otherwise, you have to do it when you still have some life left to actually make your escape. The old adage of you snooze you lose applies. Staying past the point of no return and getting whacked by a PC is totally under the control of the DM. You KNOW the player can maipulate the minion you just added to the encounter to cleave the dragon and end him, but seriously, you aren't more worried about the fighter smacking the dragon with his free attack from combat challenge when the dragon shifts away to run in the first place?
I can see minions entering at the last second, but again, if you're going to run away, NPC, PC or otherwise, you have to do it when you still have some life left to actually make your escape. The old adage of you snooze you lose applies. Staying past the point of no return and getting whacked by a PC is totally under the control of the DM. You KNOW the player can maipulate the minion you just added to the encounter to cleave the dragon and end him, but seriously, you aren't more worried about the fighter smacking the dragon with his free attack from combat challenge when the dragon shifts away to run in the first place?
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