Cleave - Automatic hits on 2nd target?

[Xorn]

If the OP thinks Cleave is such a problem, I'd hate to see what he thinks of Reaping Strike...

THIS.

Heh, a Dragonborn with 18 STR waving around a maul or greataxe is a perfect match for Reaping Strike. THAT is automatic damage to the "unhittable" enemy, not a chance--a certainty.

The wizard can throw magic missiles till he's blue in the face--I'm okay with the fighter doing a little free damage to the BBEG. (Who is way too high for the party to be fighting if he's only hit on a 20, so you should have been giving them clues to run.)

 

[Pbartender]

I'm just sayin'... Cleave isn't even broken when the enemy brings his own bag of rats FOR you.


And while we're on the subject of a bag of rats...

Rat swarms take half damage from melee attacks. Cleave is a melee attack so if you decide to use a bag of rats as a cleave-enabler at a level where it is a threat and is permissible, then you'll end up getting attacked by a thing that can attack you as a free action at the beginning of your own turn that you're not doing enough damage to to seriously threaten.

And if you decide instead to use a bag of rats to attack another bag of rats, the cleaved bag of rats gets to halve your cleave damage.

I'm just saying Bag of Rats + Cleave is not good for you.


EDIT: Druids better get a power called Bag o' Rats.

Not that I don't agree with your earlier assessment...

I just want to point out that you no longer need a bag of rats to use Cleave. Remember, the new Cleave no longer requires you to take an enemy down. You only have to hit him. All you need is something hostile with soft skin and a lot of hit points standing next to the dragon -- a marshmallow golem, for example -- and that'll do fine.

 

[Bagpuss]

That seems really stupid to me. You have an impossible to hit creature, so you place a weakling next to it and suddenly you can damage it? Despite the fact you weren't really aiming for it, your concentration is on the weakling?

How is that not a problem?

a) You shouldn't be facing an impossible to hit creature.
b) If you are facing a solo creature that is very hard to hit it is unlikely to have minions around it.
c) Minions aren't 'easy' to hit compared to other creatures of their level.

So the hypothetical situation you created should never come up hence it isn't problem.

 

[vazanar]

I think many of the examples of how cleave is only a small amount of damage assumes the creature is at full hit points. Take the dragon example, the party has tangled with the dragon and his minions for several hard fought rounds. The rogue gets underneath the critter and stabs it hard. The dragon lets out a blood curdling roar and looks skyward to make a retreat. Our big buff fighter has one last action as the mighty beast spreads its wings.

Now, should he A) take a shot at the dragon were he has, lets say, a 15% chance to hit, or b) take a shot at the minion near him where he has a 30% chance to hit and then do some minor, but now extremely significant damage, to the dragon?
.

So the fighter uses the minion as a distraction to land the last blow. Throws the minion into the dragons mouth before it breaths etc. There are numerous cinematic ways to see this.

Plus it's a gamble on the fighters part. Most dm's don't tell the hp #. It be quite a guess to say a monster with 800hp needs only 6-7 more damage to die.

 

[Dausuul]

I think many of the examples of how cleave is only a small amount of damage assumes the creature is at full hit points. Take the dragon example, the party has tangled with the dragon and his minions for several hard fought rounds. The rogue gets underneath the critter and stabs it hard. The dragon lets out a blood curdling roar and looks skyward to make a retreat. Our big buff fighter has one last action as the mighty beast spreads its wings.

Now, should he A) take a shot at the dragon were he has, lets say, a 15% chance to hit, or b) take a shot at the minion near him where he has a 30% chance to hit and then do some minor, but now extremely significant damage, to the dragon?

If the player somehow knows that the dragon is on its last couple of hit points, then cleave the minion, sure. But that is a) an extreme corner case, and b) unlikely to happen since the player doesn't have a hit point readout on the dragon. It is possible to know that the dragon is within a couple hit points of dying, if the dice line up just so and all the PCs keep careful track of how much damage they've done and when the dragon was bloodied; but even then, you have to get lucky. And I've yet to see a 4E party put in that kind of effort to track a monster's hit points.

The time savings from not requiring a second attack roll is well worth it IMO. Try it in play, you'll find it's not a problem. I've never seen anyone attack a minion in order to cleave the BBEG; it's always the other way round.

 

[Ninja-to]

Not that I don't agree with your earlier assessment...

I just want to point out that you no longer need a bag of rats to use Cleave. Remember, the new Cleave no longer requires you to take an enemy down. You only have to hit him. All you need is something hostile with soft skin and a lot of hit points standing next to the dragon -- a marshmallow golem, for example -- and that'll do fine.

You don't have to be restricted to one character doing this tactic, but several with similar powers where they aim for weaker creatures in order to hit the stronger, particularly when the main creature is weakened.

 

[James McMurray]

The GM should know that he's got aparty full of cleavers. If he doesn't want them to use that tactic, he shouldn't put them up against one unhittable opponent and an infinite stream of easily hittable lesser foes.

Cleave damage is minimal, and will takea very long time to kill a major opponent. If you're in a situation where the best chance you have of hurting the bad guy is with cleave, you need to get out of there fast.

 

[Ibixat]

Lets just go under the assumption that if you are seriously worried about cleave splash killing the big bad seconds before his retreat you are going to crap your pants when my level 30 stormwarden ranger steps up and hits him for 36 points of damage that round without even hitting, or only 28 points at level 16.

Again if you want the big bad with 700-800 hp to run away, he needs to start doing it long long LONG before he's at 10 or less hp.

 

[ST]

That's a good point. If this particular situation came up and as DM it really bugged you, well it really isn't going to matter if you houserule it. If the party's defender isn't focusing on keeping the BBEG busy, and instead has the nefarious plan of hitting him with 5 splash damage per round, you'd probably be doing him a favor to say "Houserule, that doesn't work" to keep him from wasting his time and getting the party killed.

So since it really doesn't matter, by all means feel free to say "splash damage from cleaving minions can't hit Elites" or somesuch. I don't think it's at all necessary, but either way isn't going to change the overall outcome.

 

[phil500]

quick question: if the weapon is a +2, or if the char has focus, cleave still only does str mod to the baddy right?