Cleave on an AoO?

[Nail]

IME, players love it when they get to Cleave.

Yep.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The SM I trick is neat....but at best it gets you one extra attack. So that means the Wiz casts a 1st level spell which gives the Ftr one extra attack (so long as the Ftr doesn't miss, and does kill the SM I).

I just use Snake's Swiftness for that

-Hyp.

 

[Nail]

...a 2nd level spell, but one that doesn't have a "miss chance".

 

[FireLance]

...a 2nd level spell, but one that doesn't have a "miss chance".

It's 1st level for a druid, but if we're taking 2nd level spells, summon monster II nets you 1d3 potential attacks, and summon monster III nets you 1d4+1.

This might make a neat trick especially if you have a malconvoker (spellcaster who specializes in tricking evil summoned creatures into fighting other evil creatures, from Complete Scoundrel) in the party.

A really interesting tactic would be to combine this with summoning creatures with regeneration (simple fast healing would not work), and deal them enough nonlethal damage to bring their hit points to a very low level. These then provoke AOOs from the fighter with Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave, who attacks them with a weapon that also deals nonlethal damage to them. When they suffer enough nonlethal damage to drop, the fighter then Cleaves off his AOOs into the BBEG. The next round, the party healer can use a mass cure wounds spell to bring their nonlethal damage down to less than their hit points (healing any other party members who might also be injured in the process), and they can provoke AOOs from the fighter again.

A quick check with the PHB and MM indicates that the lowest you can manage this is 11th level (summon monster VI), with a single chain devil.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's 1st level for a druid...

Yeah - I'm playing a Spontaneous Divine Caster druid at the moment, and two of my (three) first level Spells Known are Summon Nature's Ally I, and Snake's Swiftness.

-Hyp.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I can understand your position. I just can't see it coming up that often, that the mooks are soooo easily sliceable, and all so crowded together, while the BBEG is also just standing around waiting to get hammered. Even with reach.

I have seen it come up a couple times with PCs fighting a big nasty very strong creature with Reach -- the kind that can take down a healthy PC with 2-3 hits, or wounded PCs who have waded through the mooks with ~1 - ~1 1/2 hits (depending on the luck of the damage roll). Those are so non-rare that they are a staple of the game IME.

And don't the wounded PCs often bunch up to overwhelm that last big enemy still standing?

Again, the bottom line for me is that provoking AoOs are something to be encouraged in my book. It makes the game more exciting to see players taking measured risks.

The downside with this corner case is it is a random factor that turns a "Oops! I guess I just got myself killed. Thems the breaks." into a "Holy crap! I just killed my own PC and 2 of my friends' PCs as well. Uh, sorry?"

My personal opinion is that kind of very wide variance goes against the basic point of the kind of hit point mechanics and hit point scaling. If this is "realistic" then it is the kind of realism that the designers have purposefully avoided time and time again.

Now I do hear on these boards occasionally from people who say they almost never see AoOs, so I suppose this corner case is too outlandish from their POV. IMO it is a pity that they have been trained into such restricted tactics.

Now obviously by the RAW, the AoO + Cleave is a huge reason to be careful around any BBEG melee monster. By the RAW. But is the game actually more fun for such timidity?

You know my opinion.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

It is pretty common in certain Old School 1e/2e campaigns that you get to fight a very magical and tough BBEG with SR, resistances, and immunities up the wazoo.

In those situations, casting spells directly at the BBEG is joke. The only practical way to kill these advesaries is keep whack, whack, whacking away with your biggest +n swords.

(Yawn. The joys of DR in the "Goode Olde Dayes". :\ )

Converting a 1st level spell into a melee attack would be a big boon in those situtations, because half your party is neutered offensive-wise in the first place. Even more melee attacks would be nothing short of tremedous.

 

[Hussar]

Meh. As far as the Summon Monster thing goes. If the wizzie wants to spend a full round action and a third level spell in order to give the fighter 3-5 extra attacks, let him. Considering what wizards are capable of, that's pretty far down on the firepower scale. Heck, it's not all that much more than a haste spell which would have given the fighter possibly 2 attacks (over two rounds), a to hit bonus, an AC bonus and a movement bonus, as well as affecting several other PC's.

 

[Nail]

Now I do hear on these boards occasionally from people who say they almost never see AoOs, so I suppose this corner case is too outlandish from their POV. IMO it is a pity that they have been trained into such restricted tactics....

Wait, wait....

You're saying that the risk of taking an AoO is fun, and more people should do it...yet you hate the risk that cleaving off of an AoO presents?

 

[Li Shenron]

Regardless of whether it's on an AoO or a regular turn, a cleave is going to happen regardless of whether the Cleavee wants it to happen or has been 'super careful' or whatnot.

So, what's the big deal as to whether it happens on an AoO or regular attack? I'm confused by this point.

It's just a feeling or a hunch... AoOs are designed as penalties for doing something "not quite allowed". I think they might have been conceived as a sort of metagame penalty (it's too good if you can use a bow both as a ranged and a melee weapon), rather than to represent something realistic, although later a decent in-game explanation was found.

Furthermore AoOs were designed in such a way that you can always avoid getting an AoO... by simply not doing the provoking action.

As I said, it's just a hunch that something isn't quite fair with it.

Big deal? Certainly not... but why is it a big deal otherwise to you, if I disallow AoOs during a Cleave? Because I dare to disregard the legendary "rules as written"?