Cleave question (AoO)

[Hypersmurf]

Should a DM wait until it is a problem to consider changing the rule? Probably not. If a PC builds a character specifically to take advantage of this type of rule abuse*, they'll probably resent having their entire character concept nerfed deep into the game.

* or, alternatively, "to take advantage of the synergy of these feats".

Of course, to get forty attacks, he'd need a Dexterity in the region of 80-90. Which seems... unlikely.

-Hyp.

 

[Len]

Also on the best of album:
"You'll Never Fall Apart Again"
"Shave a Lady" and ...
"What's new, Cuisinart? Whoa-oh-ah-oh-ah-oh"

I think that last one goes "...A-O-O-A-O-O"
(All right, enough from me. But hey, it's hard to come up with something original on this topic.)

 

[jgsugden]

Of course, to get forty attacks, he'd need a Dexterity in the region of 80-90. Which seems... unlikely.
-Hyp.

Normal attack routine: gives 3 to 6 attacks depending upon the build. Considering that we are talking about weak opponent (for the most part and that he can take a 5' step in between some of the attacks (not between the cleaving), with an option-reach weapon he can nail 25 creatures with his main attack routine and greate cleave.

Then, he waits for more minions to pile in after a number have moved within his reach, he takes one AoO against a minion, kills it and cleaves into another minion. This one AoO can create up to 20 more attacks. This can be repeated as long as you have AoO to throw out there, so a rogue with a high dex, planning and cooperative weak foes could kill over a hundred foes with his normal attacks and AoOs.

This is an extreme example, but I have personally launched over fifty attacks with my epic rogue between the beginning of one round and the beginning of my next round due to combat reflexes and great cleave. If you think this is insane, consider a high level wildshaped animal growthed druid with combat reflexes, great cleave and a size of gargantuan. With his incredible strength, power attack and very long reach, he might take down an entire army all by himself in a single round.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Then, he waits for more minions to pile in after a number have moved within his reach, he takes one AoO against a minion, kills it and cleaves into another minion. This one AoO can create up to 20 more attacks.

Ah - my mistake. I thought you were suggesting forty Cleaves into the BBEG, rather than forty chained Cleaves through minions.

Meh. If a Reached-Up, Combat Reflexed Great Cleaver gets thrown into an army of goblins, he should be an unstoppable combine harvester of doom.

"What you call Hell... he calls home."

-Hyp.

 

[Mystery Man]

Ah - my mistake. I thought you were suggesting forty Cleaves into the BBEG, rather than forty chained Cleaves through minions.

Meh. If a Reached-Up, Combat Reflexed Great Cleaver gets thrown into an army of goblins, he should be an unstoppable combine harvester of doom.

"What you call Hell... he calls home."

-Hyp.

Ali Babba and the 40 cleaves?

Sorry couldn't stop myself.

 

[jgsugden]

Ah - my mistake. I thought you were suggesting forty Cleaves into the BBEG, rather than forty chained Cleaves through minions.

Just versus the BBEG: I can see an optimized halfling 16th rogue/4th level fighter character made with WotC rules getting the following attacks:
7 attacks with two weapon fighting and a full attack action (BAB -2/-2/-7/-7/-12/-12/-17)
1 From Expert Tactician at BAB -2
1 From Opportunist at BAB -2
1 Normal AoO at -2
12 AoOs from Great Cleave/Combat Reflexes with a Dexterity of 34 (18 base + 2 race + 5 advances + 5 inherent +6 enhancement) at BAB -2

That is 17 attacks at BAB-2, 2 attacks at BAB -7, 2 attacks at BAB -12 and 1 attack at BAB -17. 24 attacks. Using strength 26 (16 base, +6 enhancement, +4 inherent), weapon finesse, weapon focus, improved critical, weapon specialization, 2 +5 holy small daggers, haste, a wand of (CL 18) divine favor and bless, his expected damage versus an AC 30 BBEG would be 1264.315 damage. Enough to take a fully healthy Tarrasque to -76 hit points, even if it gets full use of its DR. Unless the target gets DR, the odds of him making all his saves versus massive damage are roughly a 2 in 3 chance even if it fails only on a 1.) This uses 12 of a possible 12 feats (7 from levels, 3 from fighter and 2 (3-1) rogue special abilities (1 spent on opportunist)): Power attack, cleave, great cleave, combat reflexes, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, expert tactician, weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical and weapon finesse.

This, of course, is meaningless drivel, but I had time to spare and a BBEG in my campaign that was already maxed out like this ... (except his daggers are unholy).

Abused to the max, this creates an insane opportunity. Cleaving off of the AoO only accounts for 703.38 of that damage, after all. PCs that set up an encounter correctly will probably have to settle for only a hundred extra damage, but I think even that is enough to be cautious.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Just versus the BBEG: I can see an optimized halfling 16th rogue/4th level fighter character made with WotC rules getting the following attacks...

Of course, using two weapons reduces his likelihood of actually getting to use all those AoOs fairly significantly, since we're no longer threatening half the battlefield

-Hyp.

 

[Camarath]

Just versus the BBEG: I can see an optimized halfling 16th rogue/4th level fighter character made with WotC rules getting the following attacks:

I have some questions.

First shouldn't your number of attacks be 23 (12(Cleave/Combat Reflexes) + 1(normal AoO) + 1(Opportunist) + 1(Expert Tactician) + 1(haste) +7(normal attacks(4) and GTWF(3)) = 23)?

Second isn't your expected damage to high since it comes out to 54.9702 per attack (1264.315 / 23) wile the average non critical damage would be 30 (2(dagger) + 8(str) + 6(divine favor) + 2(weapon specialization) + 5(enchancement) + 7(holy)) [range 24 to 36] {off hand -4} and critical damage would be 53 ((2(dagger) + 8(str) + 3(divine favor) + 2(weapon specialization) + 5(enchancement))x2 + 7(holy)) [range 46 to 60] {off hand -8}?

edit: changed divine favor bonus to +6

 

[Storm Raven]

This is an extreme example, but I have personally launched over fifty attacks with my epic rogue between the beginning of one round and the beginning of my next round due to combat reflexes and great cleave.

So? Epic characters can do epic things. Where is the problem?

 

[mikebr99]

So? Epic characters can do epic things. Where is the problem?

[rant] Exactly... and this still pails to anything one of the big 3 casters (Wiz/Cleric/Druid) could do epic'lly.

I'm sure if we worked hard enough with any of the feats/abilities/spells etc. it could be proved to be 'broken' in a vacuum.

Cleave/Great Cleave are just fine... but If you don't want to see epic combat like the opening of Fellowship of the Rings... then by all means, remove the chain. But you might also want to look at a bunch of spells while you are doing that. [/rant]

YMMV


Mike