Cleave question (AoO)

[hong]

So? Epic characters can do epic things. Where is the problem?

Oh, how insightful.

I really would like to know where this whole "if it's epic, balance is irrelevant" idea came from. Actually, hold that thought. I know EXACTLY where it came from. It's just the old "if it's a 9th level spell, balance is irrelevant" idea, only kicked up a couple of levels. Where people used to say "it's broken, but it might work if it's 9th level", now they say "it's broken, but it might work if it's epic". Or "it's epic, there can be no problem", like the latter was a necessary consequence of the former.

 

[Darklone]

Oh, how insightful.

Epic insight bonus to everything +10.

 

[Storm Raven]

Oh, how insightful.

I really would like to know where this whole "if it's epic, balance is irrelevant" idea came from.

That's not the idea. The idea is that worrying over whether or not a 21st+ level character can wipe out a bunch of low level opponents quickly is silly. How unbalanced is it that a character of that level could reliably down low hit die opponents? (Since, of course, when you are talking about an AoO/Cleave combination, you are talking about opponents you can reliably put down in a single hit).

If you are 21st+ level, and fighting opponents who you can reliably put down in a single hit, exactly where is the balance problem inherent in this highly unlikely scenario where you will have many low hit die opponent's provoke multiple AoO's with low hit die buddies standing nearby multiple times in a single round?

 

[Spatzimaus]

So? Epic characters can do epic things. Where is the problem?

Because none of the things need for the combo are epic, maybe? The fact that the situation came up at epic levels is irrelevant to the discussion, I've had the same thing happen with a level 10 Psychic warrior when attacked by an army of kobolds. Using powers I managed to get a Reach of 15' and a DEX of 24; I ended up killing 30 or so in one turn.

There's two separate issues here:
1> AoOs, and by extension their Cleaves, are at the full attack bonus, while the "normal" attacks get progressively less likely to hit. So, finding a way to take a ton of extra attacks at full AB really ramps up your damage beyond what two low-level Feats should give.
2> There's a conceptual flaw. AoOs occur when the target drops his guard while doing some other action, so the attacker sneaks an extra attack through. Cleaves happen when you hit a target so hard that the blow continues through to the second target. However, if you allow Cleave on an AoO, then the second target is receiving an attack he wouldn't otherwise take simply because his friend left an opening. Since this second person didn't do anything to draw an AoO, the cleaving blow shouldn't get through his defenses any more than if the first target hadn't existed.

Add in Whirlwind Attack and a Bucket of Snails and it gets even more entertaining.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

If you are 21st+ level, and fighting opponents who you can reliably put down in a single hit, exactly where is the balance problem inherent in this highly unlikely scenario where you will have many low hit die opponent's provoke multiple AoO's with low hit die buddies standing nearby multiple times in a single round?

Because that is not the only place it can appear if you accept the mechanics as 100% sound. I can also summon small critters to attack my ally with a reach weapon thereby generating a number of "free" attacks against the BBEG. That may actually be an optimal tactic when a spellcaster is faced with a BBEG with a high SR on top of other resistances.

 

[mikebr99]

Because that is not the only place it can appear if you accept the mechanics as 100% sound. I can also summon small critters to attack my ally with a reach weapon thereby generating a number of "free" attacks against the BBEG. That may actually be an optimal tactic when a spellcaster is faced with a BBEG with a high SR on top of other resistances.

But, odds are, your BBEG with a high SR and resistances is also pretty smart, and will see this coming once 2-5 critters appears and attack the fighter, who by the way is fighting with a reach weapon, so couldn't attack the critters close to him (stupid chain being the exception). The BBEG takes flight and nukes the sight from the air... it's the only way to be sure!


Mike

 

[mikebr99]

Because none of the things need for the combo are epic, maybe? The fact that the situation came up at epic levels is irrelevant to the discussion, I've had the same thing happen with a level 10 Psychic warrior when attacked by an army of kobolds. Using powers I managed to get a Reach of 15' and a DEX of 24; I ended up killing 30 or so in one turn.

but, 2nd round, the next 30+ kobolds delay/aid other and grapple the s**t out of him. Game over.

Mike

 

[jgsugden]

Camarath: I did the numbers quickly, but off the top of my head, I think you gave too little luck bonus to hit and damage. Divine Favor at CL 18 is +6/+6. And I did forget the haste attack.

Regarding the 20th level example: That character was not epic. Close, but not there. It wasn't even optimized, either. If we used a medium sized character, enlarged it to give it reach (or polymorphed it into a large or huge creature and gave it appropriate weapons), it could be far nastier. I bet I could get that damage up over 2000.

Regardless, a midlevel character can do similar things. A 9th level druid that is wildshaped into a tiger and then animal growthed is size huge with an impressive reach. If he has combat reflexes and great cleave, casts bull's strength, cat's grace and a few other spells (greater magic weapons, etc ...), he can pounce on a BBEG for 5 attacks, and then cleave off of minions that provoke AoOs from moving for another 5 attacks (cat's grace on a tiger gives it a dex of 19) on the BBEG. Those 5 extra attacks are with the tiger's best weapon, so they are better than the normal attack routine. If you add in spells from other PCs (haste, etc ...), this druid becomes a nightmare.

What about a melee rogue at 9th level with combat reflexes and great cleave? If he has greater invisibility and enlarge person, his attacks will probably be doing 25 damage per attack and he'll probably have a dex of 24 or so to allow a total of 8 AoO/cleaves onto the BBEG to go with his normal 2 attacks. Instead of 2 attacks for 50 damage, he'll generate up to 10 attacks for 250 damage.

This is too strong. It also leads to odd strategies by the PCs that make no 'real world' sense. Placing reasonable limits on this issue makes sense. By the time someone has built a character exploite this rule issue, they'll feel entitled to the insane damage potential whenever they can set it up and will tend to resist the changes in the rules.

"Hey, wizard, don't fireball the minions. I want to cleave off of them into the BBEG!"

"Wait, don't kill the prisoners. I want to drag them to the throne room and give them weapons so that they'll try to defend their king. Then I can cleave off of them and finish the king in one round!"

"Hey, wizard, quick, use your summon monster III to create a few dire rats to attack me. Then I can kill them, and cleave off of them into the BBEG!"

Regarding spiked chain: Other ways to get 'option' reach are available. For instance, enlarge person does the trick.

 

[mikebr99]

Regardless, a midlevel character can do similar things. A 9th level druid that is wildshaped into a tiger and then animal growthed is size huge with an impressive reach. If he has combat reflexes and great cleave, casts bull's strength, cat's grace and a few other spells (greater magic weapons, etc ...), he can pounce on a BBEG for 5 attacks, and then cleave off of minions that provoke AoOs from moving for another 5 attacks (cat's grace on a tiger gives it a dex of 19) on the BBEG. Those 5 extra attacks are with the tiger's best weapon, so they are better than the normal attack routine. If you add in spells from other PCs (haste, etc ...), this druid becomes a nightmare.

You are wanting a 9th level druid to spend all of his 4 feats on combat stuff? My 12th level druid doesn't have any of these feats.

YMMV


Mike

 

[jgsugden]

You are wanting a 9th level druid to spend all of his 4 feats on combat stuff? My 12th level druid doesn't have any of these feats.

YMMV

MMDV (My Mileage Does Vary).

A decent number of players see druids as a melee class that can cast spells on the side. If assembled correctly, a druid in melee can be as fierce as any class. My dwarven druid (4th level) has power attack and cleave as his first two feats. He'll have those 4 feats at 9th level (as well as natural spell - he is going to multiclass to fighter at 6th or 7th level) even though this loophole has been closed in that game.

3.5 druids break down into three camps: Melee druids, spellcasting druids and summoning druids. The great cleave tree and combat reflexes will be popular amongst the melee druids. I doubt many melee druids will get to 18th level without picking up combat reflexes. Most of those will probably get great cleave as well. The spellcasting and summoning druids may look elsewhere, but melee druids get too much bang out of these feats to ignore them ...

Though, I do think that a lot of people overlook the benefits of a whirlwinding animal growthed T-rex with a decent power attack going on .... (if you're in the camp that believe that the wildshape ability does not suffer the 15 HD cap placed on polymorph).