Cleave question (AoO)

[Ridley's Cohort]

But, odds are, your BBEG with a high SR and resistances is also pretty smart, and will see this coming once 2-5 critters appears and attack the fighter, who by the way is fighting with a reach weapon, so couldn't attack the critters close to him (stupid chain being the exception). The BBEG takes flight and nukes the sight from the air... it's the only way to be sure!

The BBEG will attack the fighter? No duh.

I have seen a number of combats where the grunt fighter(s) is the only one who can do much against the BBEG. In those situations the spellcasters stand back and heal/buff the the fighter. Giving the fighter an extra d3 attacks at full BAB for a 2nd level spell is a bargain. Full BAB is great for Power Attack.

Let me put it to you another way. If you were DM and a player in one of your campaigns came to you and asked for a 2nd spell for his PC that gave a target PC an immediate d3 bonus attacks at full BAB, would you be okay with that?

 

[The Hanged Man]

If you were DM and a player in one of your campaigns came to you and asked for a 2nd spell for his PC that gave a target PC an immediate d3 bonus attacks at full BAB, would you be okay with that?

If it gave 1d3 full-BAB attacks for one round, took a full round to cast, and couldn't be used during the fighter's normal attack sequence, yeah, I might consider that a worth-while 2nd level spell. A more powerful effect than Haste, but without the AC, movement and to-hit bennies, lasting only one round, and taking a full round to cast? 2nd level sounds about right.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

If it gave 1d3 full-BAB attacks for one round, took a full round to cast, and couldn't be used during the fighter's normal attack sequence, yeah, I might consider that a worth-while 2nd level spell. A more powerful effect than Haste, but without the AC, movement and to-hit bennies, lasting only one round, and taking a full round to cast? 2nd level sounds about right.

Keep in mind that 2 attacks at full BAB is usually quite a bit better than a full iterative attack (unless you are very high level or you are deep into the TWF chain). The value of attacking out of sequence is hard to judge, it could easily be to your advantage or disadvantage.

Any other opinions?

 

[Camarath]

Camarath: I did the numbers quickly, but off the top of my head, I think you gave too little luck bonus to hit and damage. Divine Favor at CL 18 is +6/+6. And I did forget the haste attack.

You are right the bonus from Divine Favor should be +6 not +3 sorry about that. I change my post to reflect the proper value. You expected damage is still to high unless the character successfully scores a critical hit with every one of its attacks.

If you find Cleaving on AoO to be a problem then house rule it. I have not found it to be a problem. This simplest solution to the Cleave on AoO equals massive number of attacks problem would seem to me to be not having minor foes provoke AoO from characters that can consistently kill them in one hit. I can not think of very many reasons for a large number of weak foes willingly preform actions that expose them to great unnecessary danger.

 

[jgsugden]

Well, differ on the intent. IIRC, the designers said several times this was intended.

Whether it's a smart thing or not is another question. IMO, it's not a big deal in terms of actual effect on the game, but really annoying in terms of "purity of the game," if there is such a thing. Realistically, AoO/Cleave just isn't a problem that often. Is it important enough to warrant making the rules more comlicated?

I keep a pretty good eye on the web for comments from WotC people. I never saw anything indicating that they thought cleaving off an AoO was a good component of the game. I never saw anything remotely supporting the idea that they considered this element and intentionally left it in. If you know where you saw it, I'd love to go check out the thread.

As for it not being too important: If it is not used, it is not important. If it is used, it becomes very important. In some styles of game, this is a very common occurence. For instance, if you play the ToEE video game, count the number of times you'll run into a boss amongst foes that you can take down in one hit. If your experience is like mine, this happens a lot.

I compare it to having a loaded gun in the house: It doesn't really matter unless it goes off. If it does, then you probably have a big problem. Besides, you can't really call it unimportant if you'd spend time writing multiple posts on the thread.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Wow. A 10th level character managed to bump off 30 1/4 CR creatures in a single turn. Never mind that this is an encounter of such a trivial nature for such a character that he gets no experience for it.

First, it allowed me to try to cleave twenty times into the Hill Giant with class levels, who clearly would have been a challenge otherwise. He died, of course. I thought this part was implied by the context of the discussion.
Second, this was only part of a larger encounter; the DM was throwing giants, vampires, trolls, ogre mages, a small dragon, etc. at us and decided to add a bunch of kobolds to crowd the space. They'd set up flanking opportunities, Aid Another, and in general impede our movement. (Oh, and act as food for the vampires...). Fireball was out of the question due to other constraints (hostages), and we didn't have Chain Lightning.
Clearing the entire population out in one round definitely helped the outcome. In that situation, they're not thirty individual CR 1/4 creatures, they're more like a trap that resets itself until you destroy it; the threat is not in the damage they do to you, it's in their ability to impede you against the others. Throwing hordes of "popcorn" creatures at the PCs has a lot going for it. Like someone said earlier, they can group-grapple half your party while a few bigger enemies wipe you out.

Whirlwind Attack allows you to attack enemies. Snails are not enemies.

"Enemy" means whatever you want it to mean in this context. This isn't a magical ability; it's a mundane Feat, representing combat skill. If I decide to attack someone, what does THEIR intent have to do with whether the feat can be used?

Besides, I hate them, so they clearly hate me, and these are MAGICAL snails. Who can be sure they don't have some sort of hive-mind thing going on, plotting world domination while we ignore them? They're like the Flumphs, but even more insidious.

 

[Darklone]

I am so happy with my houserule, listed above under option 3)... that you may only cleave once per round into one opponent.

Hmm. Huge giant cleric casting Righteous Might, then Whirlwind attack. Woah. Gotta try it.

 

[Storm Raven]

First, it allowed me to try to cleave twenty times into the Hill Giant with class levels, who clearly would have been a challenge otherwise. He died, of course. I thought this part was implied by the context of the discussion.

No, when you say "I killed 30 kobolds in a single round" that does not imply "I also killed a bunch of other stuff too". Still, why exactly were the kobolds drawing piles of AoOs? They aren't stupid, why did they note your capabilities and spend lots of time milling around within your reach? Plus, you basically used a significant feat chain, several spells, and a fair amount of resources and essentially defeated a single opponent in one round (the hill giant, the kobolds don't count, they are too low a CR to actually be counted). When you expend several spells and the benefits of a feat chain, you expect to be able to handle an opponent.

Second, this was only part of a larger encounter; the DM was throwing giants, vampires, trolls, ogre mages, a small dragon, etc. at us and decided to add a bunch of kobolds to crowd the space. They'd set up flanking opportunities, Aid Another, and in general impede our movement. (Oh, and act as food for the vampires...). Fireball was out of the question due to other constraints (hostages), and we didn't have Chain Lightning.

That's not really a "kobold army" then is it? That's "kobold cannon fodder" plus a bunch of actual opponents. Is it any wonder that they didn't last a single round? I'm still not seeing why a combo involving a feat chain plus the expenditure of multiple spells to kill off a bunch of mooks and (now in your revised version) a mid range opponent is a problem.

Clearing the entire population out in one round definitely helped the outcome. In that situation, they're not thirty individual CR 1/4 creatures, they're more like a trap that resets itself until you destroy it; the threat is not in the damage they do to you, it's in their ability to impede you against the others. Throwing hordes of "popcorn" creatures at the PCs has a lot going for it. Like someone said earlier, they can group-grapple half your party while a few bigger enemies wipe you out.

They could, but then again, a horde of "popcorn" creatures isn't supposed to be a challenge for a 10th level character. So it should not surprise anyone when they aren't. People wanting to throw a horde of kobolds, or goblins, or whatever other sub-1 CR opponents at 10th level characters and have them be even remotely useful are just engaging in wishful thinking. They aren't, and won't be useful. The problem isn't that Cleave-AoO is broken, the problem is that "mook" opponents are not effective against mid to high level characters. Stop using them against such characters if you want something that will pose an effective challenge.

"Enemy" means whatever you want it to mean in this context. This isn't a magical ability; it's a mundane Feat, representing combat skill. If I decide to attack someone, what does THEIR intent have to do with whether the feat can be used?

No, it means enemies. Snails cannot threaten you in any way. Hence, they are not enemies. Sorry, that dodge doesn't work, and the only people who think it does are people trying to "prove" that cleave is broken.

 

[Elvinis75]

AoO is limited to enemies - which is never defined. It can get very metaphysical ("The enemy of my enemy is my friend!").

I find it hard to believe 1000 orcs were killed by a wall of fire. Not even orcs are that stupid.

Sorry it was supposed to read 56 seconds.
He is immune to fire and simply kept walking forward though the walls and throwing up the next one and the next. 10 huge walls makes orcs into little smokeys

 

[Elvinis75]

Whirlwind Attack allows you to attack enemies. Snails are not enemies.

"Enemy" means whatever you want it to mean in this context. This isn't a magical ability; it's a mundane Feat, representing combat skill. If I decide to attack someone, what does THEIR intent have to do with whether the feat can be used?

Besides, I hate them, so they clearly hate me, and these are MAGICAL snails. Who can be sure they don't have some sort of hive-mind thing going on, plotting world domination while we ignore them? They're like the Flumphs, but even more insidious.

I have to assume that you are not serious given the second paragraph but it saddens me that players or DM would try to use the bag o snails or 18 goblin allies that are enemies even though they are fighting for me rather than against me. The attacker doesn’t have the sole responsibility when it comes to determining the status of the person attacked. Indeed the noun that defines the other person is more defined by their activity.
Looking at the word enemy it becomes clear
Main Entry: en•e•my
Function: noun
1 : one that is antagonistic to another; especially : one seeking to injure, overthrow, or confound an opponent

Lets see are those goblin or kobalds match that description?
Not in relation to Main Bad Guy. The MBG is not the person on the other end of the seeking to injure category. The PCs are. The difference is that the noun that should be used to define the popcorn as they have been called is victim.
Main Entry: vic•tim
Function: noun
1 : a living being sacrificed to a deity or in the performance of a religious rite
2 : one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent <the schools are victims of the social system>: as a (1) : one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions <a victim of cancer> <a victim of the auto crash> <a murder victim> (2) : one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment <a frequent victim of political attacks> b : one that is tricked or duped <a con man's victim>

Definition one doesn’t fit but certainly the #2 does.

So if you don't get AOOs from them then you will not have the issue of 20 AOOs that grant 20 cleaves against the opponent whether that opponent is the BBEG or one of the PCs. Unless the BBEG is stupid as all get out