Cleaving with ranged weapons?

[the_mighty_agrippa]

Not to mention the AOO for willfully ignoring the raging barbarian next to you as you drop something 50 feet away with your first shot.

 

[Tonguez]

and of course a bow is a ranged weapon NOT a melee weapon

if anyone would like to argue that using a bow as an improvised melee weapon makes it a melee weapon then I will counter with in that case then the arrow is the ranged weapon and a different weapon to the bow

- in both cases Cleave doesn't work

 

[Sejs]

No.

Besides, hitting someone with your bow is about as effective as smacking 'em with a wet towel. At best, you'll annoy them somewhat and possibly leave a welt. At worst, you'll ruin your bow.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, it doesn't work that way, you don't get to separate your penalties out of your attack bonus to show that the positives are the same. Only the final bonus matters.

Actually, in the case of Cleave, I disagree fairly emphatically

If my Paladin-Sorcerer uses his True Strike as he Smites the evil hobgoblin he's flanking with his Goblinbane longsword from the back of his trusty horse, then Cleaves into the Dire Wolf on the other side...

His initial bonus is:

+5 BAB
+3 Str
+1 Weapon Focus
+1 Enhancement
+2 Bane enhancement
+20 True Strike
+4 Smite Evil
+2 Flanking
+1 Higher Ground

Total +39

His bonus on the Cleave... well, the wolf isn't a goblinoid, so the +2 from Bane doesn't apply. It's Large, so there's no higher ground bonus for striking from the back of a horse. He's not flanking the wolf - his ally's way over the other side. His True Strike and Smite Evil only apply to a single attack, so they've been used up (and besides, the wolf isn't evil).

So his bonus on the Cleave:

+5 BAB
+3 Str
+1 Weapon Focus
+1 Enhancement

Total +10

"at the same bonus" contrasts with other feats which allow you an extra attack "at your highest base attack bonus". If I Cleave with my third iterative attack, I add +1 for BAB, not +11. That's the 'same bonus' referred to.

The 3E FAQ stated specifically that True Strike does not apply to the Cleave attack, so we can see that the Cleave uses the same bonus... with all applicable modifiers. A lot of the modifiers to the initial attack are not applicable in this case. We could also have some modifiers to the Cleave attack that did not apply to the initial attack.

All that, of course, is completely separate to the original question. I wouldn't even allow a bow to be used as an improvised melee weapon at all, let alone on a Cleave off killing someone with an arrow...

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I stand corrected.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Ok, since the bow being used as an improvised melee weapon is obviously a sticking point, lets go with something that's only one-handed.

I'm wielding two daggers.
I throw a dagger at a distant target. He drops.
Can I cleave into the guy standing next to me with the dagger in my other hand? Assume I already took the penalties for TWF, just to make things easier.

 

[Laman Stahros]

The answer to that would have to be no! Notice that in the feat description, it states that the follow-on attack is with the same weapon. Based on that, I would not allow someone who was using two daggers (TWF) in melee to make the follow-on attack with the second dagger (No, Drizzt, you can't hit him with the other sword, even if he is vulnerable to it more than the other.).

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm wielding two daggers.
I throw a dagger at a distant target. He drops.
Can I cleave into the guy standing next to me with the dagger in my other hand? Assume I already took the penalties for TWF, just to make things easier.

Absolutely not. The Cleave attack is made with the same weapon.

"The same weapon" is sticking into your distant target.

-Hyp.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Ok, since the bow being used as an improvised melee weapon is obviously a sticking point, lets go with something that's only one-handed.

I'm wielding two daggers.
I throw a dagger at a distant target. He drops.
Can I cleave into the guy standing next to me with the dagger in my other hand? Assume I already took the penalties for TWF, just to make things easier.

*smack self* duh. I knew that.

Ok. Got one.
A spined shield - acts as a normal large spiked shield, but can fire spines at distant opponents on command.

This is certainly a weapon which you can use to drop a distant opponent and then make a melee attack with - unless the call is that the spine is the weapon and not the shield.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This is certainly a weapon which you can use to drop a distant opponent and then make a melee attack with - unless the call is that the spine is the weapon and not the shield.

Right - it's like a staff of fire, say. If I use the staff to kill someone with a scorching ray, can I hit someone else with it on the Cleave?

I'd say no

In the same way, if you killed someone with the spikey end of an Urgrosh, I wouldn't let you Cleave with the choppy end.

-Hyp.