Cleric of Gruumsh in a party with an Elf

[Riley37]

Maybe I missed it in the OP, but why is it not the player of the elf who has, in this context, made a divisive character?

Because orcs are BAD, and any conflict between an orc and a non-orc is the fault of the orc... well, that's at least how I interpret Oofta's perspective on orcs. If an elf drives a car into an orc's parked truck, then it's the orc's fault for parking the truck where it got in the elf's way. Oofta, is that accurate?

 

[Aldarc]

Maybe I missed it in the OP, but why is it not the player of the elf who has, in this context, made a divisive character?

Presumbably because selecting a deity for the cleric is more tertiary in character creation than basic bioform-class combo, and the cleric is selecting a deity that would hypothetically bring them into conflict with the elf character. It's about like picking to play a minority and then your cleric picks a racial supremacist deity.

Because orcs are BAD, and any conflict between an orc and a non-orc is the fault of the orc... well, that's at least how I interpret Oofta's perspective on orcs. If an elf drives a car into an orc's parked truck, then it's the orc's fault for parking the truck where it got in the elf's way. Oofta, is that accurate?

I don't think that is the case. The fundamental issue is not with the morality of orcs, but with playing a cleric devoted to Gruumsh who wants to genocide all elves.

 

[Riley37]

Apparently all DMs everywhere should let the players dictate what the gods are and how they'll react to someone not fully supporting their chosen people.

If you let your players dictate the nature of the setting's gods to you, then that's your DM style, at your table. Have fun with that.

I don't know any DMs who do that. I haven't seen anyone in this thread tell you that your players decide how Gruumsh reacts in your setting. I haven't seen anyone in this thread tell the OP that the OP's players decide how Gruumsh reacts in the OP's setting. Every post I've read, has assumed that the DM makes any and all decisions about how Gruumsh reacts (if Gruumsh reacts at all). There's a wide range of suggestions for what the DM might have Gruumsh do, including decisions that YOU would never make, given your conception of Gruumsh. They are ALL suggestions for what the *OP* might decide *AS DM*. None of the suggestions encourage the OP to hand the *player* any authority over Gruumsh. (I provided an example in which a player decides that their character, Gimli, had a dream; but in that example, the player does not assert that Moradin was the source of the dream. The source is still a DM decision.)

How honestly and accurately are you summarizing the positions of your fellow participants in this conversation?

 

[Riley37]

Presumbably because selecting a deity for the cleric is more tertiary in character creation than basic bioform-class combo

Bioform? There was a thread about Paizo's exploration of "ancestry" rather than "race", and people proposed many alternative terms. I would encourage you to add "bioform", but the thread's ratio of toxic-to-useful passed the point of diminishing returns and a moderator closed it.

It's about like picking to play a minority and then your cleric picks a racial supremacist deity.

If the Elf character is a cleric of Corellon Larethian, "creator and preserver of the elven race", who "approved of those who killed orcs", is that also a divisive choice?



I look forwards to Oofta's agreement or disagreement, to your assessment of Oofta's perspective on orcs.

 

[sierkejd]

Let the DM play the NPCs... this includes the gods.

Amen. Yes, the player has full agency over his or her character's conscious actions and beliefs, but a god has perfect agency and opportunity to send dreams. That said, doing so should mean that the god now has a stake in the character's life, and should be willing to reward desired behavior. This still leaves the player with full flexibility to develop the character within the constraints of the rules and setting.

 

[Oofta]

I'm making the assumption that, without other information Gruumsh is run as designed. From Volo's Guide:

Gruumsh, “He Who Watches”
Gruumsh, the undisputed ruler of the orc pantheon, pushes his children to increase their numbers so they may be his instrument of revenge against the realms of elves, humans, and dwarves. In order to spite the gods who spurned him, Gruumsh leads his orcs on a mission of ceaseless slaughter, fueled by an unending rage that seeks to lay waste to the civilized world and revel in its anguish.

Orcs are naturally chaotic and unorganized, acting on their emotions and instincts rather than out of reason and logic. Only certain charismatic orcs, those who have been directly touched by the will and might of Gruumsh, have the capacity to control the other orcs in a tribe.

The bolded part is there because some people have said that maybe this cleric is really just worshiping Gruumsh as some kind of fertility god. They ignore the second part so they may be his instrument of revenge. The only reason orcs are pushed to procreate is so that the offspring can go out and slaughter the other races.

Others have suggested changing the nature of the gods, or (presumably) the nature of orcs. There's also a bunch of lore in various books about how Gruumsh has a particular hatred of Corellon, god of the elves.

Then there's the description of clerics

Clerics are intermediaries between the mortal world and the distant planes of the gods. As varied as the gods they serve, clerics strive to embody the handiwork of their deities.

So a cleric of Gruumsh is not just someone going through a grunge phase. According to the PHB, clerics strive to embody the handiwork of their deities.

I don't see how you can reconcile someone who wants to embody the handiwork of their deity who's sole mission is ceaseless slaughter of elves, humans and dwarves unless you're playing an all "monstrous" race campaign.

In a campaign where mixed races are the assumption and those races are going to include elves, humans and dwarves, running a cleric of Gruumsh is divisive.

None of that matters of course if this is just a light RP game where the god you worship is just a label that has no real impact. Or if it's been decided that the Gruumsh isn't really as evil as depicted by the books.

One last thing. There's a huge difference between the distrust between Legolas and Gimli and someone joining your group who says "Oh, by the way I'm the acolyte of a murderous sociopath. I'm a firm believer in killing you, your loved ones and your children when we get the chance."

 

[Oofta]

Amen. Yes, the player has full agency over his or her character's conscious actions and beliefs, but a god has perfect agency and opportunity to send dreams. That said, doing so should mean that the god now has a stake in the character's life, and should be willing to reward desired behavior. This still leaves the player with full flexibility to develop the character within the constraints of the rules and setting.

The deity is already rewarding the cleric with spells and abilities.

 

[sierkejd]

Keep pushing her until something happens, then let the chips fall where they may.

Next time, everyone rolls their characters at the same time, and this campaign is an object lesson on why you don't deliberately make characters that can't play with the rest of the party.

Or, if you're not willing to take that risk... then stop pushing. Is the integrity of your campaign world really more important than the integrity of your game group? If you really just cannot reconcile it, cook up some devious divine scheme on Gruumsh's part that his little orphan Annie and her elf friend are necessary for.

I've been on the player's side of this. I enjoyed the challenge of making decisions consistent with my character's background, even when it meant doing something that had negative consequences for the group. Nobody's perfect. I don't play perfect characters who just want to get along. That said, it was still my choice, and neither the party nor the DM prevented me from playing it as believably as I wanted. I wouldn't have pushed the issue all the way to death, but I felt free to take it beyond the realm of nice.

 

[pemerton]

Presumbably because selecting a deity for the cleric is more tertiary in character creation than basic bioform-class combo, and the cleric is selecting a deity that would hypothetically bring them into conflict with the elf character.

<snip>

The fundamental issue is not with the morality of orcs, but with playing a cleric devoted to Gruumsh who wants to genocide all elves.

I'm making the assumption that, without other information Gruumsh is run as designed. From Volo's Guide:

Gruumsh, “He Who Watches”
Gruumsh, the undisputed ruler of the orc pantheon, pushes his children to increase their numbers so they may be his instrument of revenge against the realms of elves, humans, and dwarves. In order to spite the gods who spurned him, Gruumsh leads his orcs on a mission of ceaseless slaughter, fueled by an unending rage that seeks to lay waste to the civilized world and revel in its anguish.

Orcs are naturally chaotic and unorganized, acting on their emotions and instincts rather than out of reason and logic. Only certain charismatic orcs, those who have been directly touched by the will and might of Gruumsh, have the capacity to control the other orcs in a tribe.

<snip>

The only reason orcs are pushed to procreate is so that the offspring can go out and slaughter the other races.

<snip>

None of that matters of course if this is just a light RP game where the god you worship is just a label that has no real impact.

The quote from Volo's Guide says that Gruumsh seeks revenge, by laying waste to the civilsed world. The slaughter seems to be a means to the end of laying waste, not an end in itself. There is no mention of a particular animus against elves - humans and dwarves seem to be equally hated, presumably because, together with elves, they constitute the bulk of the "civilsed world".

Thinking about various ways of making sense of Gruumshian theology (if that's not oxymoronic) seems like it could be part of a heavy RP game!

 

[Aldarc]

Bioform? There was a thread about Paizo's exploration of "ancestry" rather than "race", and people proposed many alternative terms. I would encourage you to add "bioform", but the thread's ratio of toxic-to-useful passed the point of diminishing returns and a moderator closed it.

I was hoping to propose that term, only to wake up to discover the thread was closed. But if I do have a problem with the term "race," then I should practice what I preach and use alternative terms in my parlance.

If the Elf character is a cleric of Corellon Larethian, "creator and preserver of the elven race", who "approved of those who killed orcs", is that also a divisive choice?

Potentially yes. But I would wager that "wipe them all out" is more core to the theology and dogmatic teachings of one deity than to the other. To the best of my knowledge, however, we are not discussing an elf cleric who chose to venerate Corellon and their teachings with an orc in their party, but a half-orc cleric who chose to venerate Gruumsh and his teachings with an elf in their party. So this whataboutism doesn't seem particularly relevant or useful for the discussion, and it seems backwards in its assumption of wrong-doing for a player choosing to play an elf rather than for the player chosing to play a divine servant of an elf-hating god.

The quote from Volo's Guide says that Gruumsh seeks revenge, by laying waste to the civilsed world. The slaughter seems to be a means to the end of laying waste, not an end in itself. There is no mention of a particular animus against elves - humans and dwarves seem to be equally hated, presumably because, together with elves, they constitute the bulk of the "civilsed world".

Thinking about various ways of making sense of Gruumshian theology (if that's not oxymoronic) seems like it could be part of a heavy RP game!

I did not quote Volo's Guide nor am I basing my argument by appealing to it.