cleric tactics
- Thread starter likuidice
- Start date
OK, this is all IMHO, so take it for what it's worth (just one guy's take on the issue)...
The key to your dilemma is in your thread's title: *tactics*.
[Caveat: We've been playing our campaign since 1st-level, when 3.0 came out. We are now into epic.]
Something wee noticed long ago is there is a difference between what a group of PCs *can* do and what makes for a good game.
As soon as our level permitted, our resident mage started tossing disintegrate at all the BBEGs first round. That made for more than a few anti-climactic scenes.
The point is, I think it's important that a group (players *and* DM) step back and realize that the story is important. Not just the combat itself. Pacing the encounter out makes for better drama.
In our group, we came to the decision that the casters would stop starting out just focusing on the BBEGs. And the DM, likewise, wouldn't take advantage of the fact that we would "properly" wade through his lackeys first.
By mutual agreement, we've decided to allow the game to flow more like a dramatic story where we respect the DM's encounters and in return, he respects our characters.
Works for us anyway.
I guess what I'm saying is that there's rarely any fun, for anyone, when a character one-shot kills the main opposition right off the bat. By taking the time to allow the encounter to build, there is time for everyone to enjoy it.
My suggestion...
Rather than prep up *all* your boosts for a fight (turning yourself into a nuclear-powered-uber-monster), instead of casting destruction (or other "insta-deaths") on the BBEGs, just pace yourself. Cast only one or two of your preps and/or use a few "big bang" spells on other, lesser opposition first.
As a group, respect the DM's encounter and you will (hopefully) find that the DM will respect you back.
If this happens, not only will everyone have more fun, but you will likely start to see the scenes as more dramatic and cinematic in their flow.
At least, that's what we've found to be the case.
After all, how many movies/books have confrontations that start with the heroes ignoring the minions and taking out the BBEG first?
Whatever you do, I wish you all luck. Frustration, on either side of the DM screen, can be one of the biggest campaign killers.
The key to your dilemma is in your thread's title: *tactics*.
[Caveat: We've been playing our campaign since 1st-level, when 3.0 came out. We are now into epic.]
Something wee noticed long ago is there is a difference between what a group of PCs *can* do and what makes for a good game.
As soon as our level permitted, our resident mage started tossing disintegrate at all the BBEGs first round. That made for more than a few anti-climactic scenes.
The point is, I think it's important that a group (players *and* DM) step back and realize that the story is important. Not just the combat itself. Pacing the encounter out makes for better drama.
In our group, we came to the decision that the casters would stop starting out just focusing on the BBEGs. And the DM, likewise, wouldn't take advantage of the fact that we would "properly" wade through his lackeys first.
By mutual agreement, we've decided to allow the game to flow more like a dramatic story where we respect the DM's encounters and in return, he respects our characters.
Works for us anyway.
I guess what I'm saying is that there's rarely any fun, for anyone, when a character one-shot kills the main opposition right off the bat. By taking the time to allow the encounter to build, there is time for everyone to enjoy it.
My suggestion...
Rather than prep up *all* your boosts for a fight (turning yourself into a nuclear-powered-uber-monster), instead of casting destruction (or other "insta-deaths") on the BBEGs, just pace yourself. Cast only one or two of your preps and/or use a few "big bang" spells on other, lesser opposition first.
As a group, respect the DM's encounter and you will (hopefully) find that the DM will respect you back.
If this happens, not only will everyone have more fun, but you will likely start to see the scenes as more dramatic and cinematic in their flow.
At least, that's what we've found to be the case.
After all, how many movies/books have confrontations that start with the heroes ignoring the minions and taking out the BBEG first?
Whatever you do, I wish you all luck. Frustration, on either side of the DM screen, can be one of the biggest campaign killers.
dravot
First Post
Playing a cleric as my main PC, I never understood those who claim that clerics are overpowered because of the available buff spells.
Last time I tried to use more than one buff spell in combat, I spent over half the combat self-buffing and the rest of the time healing my companions who were being productive in combat. Extend spell and persistent spell feats would change this quite a bit of course, but I don't have either of them.
Considering that the ELH considers spontaneous domain casting as an epic level feat (and one feat per domain at that), your DM definitely screwed the pooch on letting you have that ability. I would have loved to have 3 epic equivalent feats at level 17.
Last time I tried to use more than one buff spell in combat, I spent over half the combat self-buffing and the rest of the time healing my companions who were being productive in combat. Extend spell and persistent spell feats would change this quite a bit of course, but I don't have either of them.
Considering that the ELH considers spontaneous domain casting as an epic level feat (and one feat per domain at that), your DM definitely screwed the pooch on letting you have that ability. I would have loved to have 3 epic equivalent feats at level 17.
likuidice said:
This is a ungodly powerful class ability.
Domains are ballenced with the understanding that you can cast a Domain spell of a give lvl ONCE a day as you can only mem ONE domain spell in that lvls domain slot.
Allowing you to spont cast ANY of your Domain spells in ANY of your spell slots would be like allowing a Wizard to Spont mem any of his spells in this spell book.
Defeantly munchkin.
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melkoriii said:
BTW, forgot to mention this as well in my previous post. I agree. I think this PrC ability is wack.
Just out of curiosity, what is the PrC you are using that gives you this? Home-brewed or third party publisher?
Care to post it (or at least the jist of it) so we can take a gander?
likuidice
First Post
homebrewed:
holy order of the stars:
requires, 3rd level cleric spells, skill focus know religion, know religion 8 ranks, know history 4 ranks.
BAB as cleric, saves as cleric
1st lvl gains an extra domain
3rd level gains trustworthy feat (+2 diplomacy and gather info)
5th gains low end lay on hands ability
6th gains an aura of courage type ability, (+4 bonuses on saves vs outsiders)
7th: adds wis bonus to melee rolls
10th can spont cast from any domain he owns (was originally a permanent holy aura spell, but i talked the dm out of that one) to be fair to him, he's never dmed a high level campaign under 3rd ed, we've normally died after about 5th or 6th.
the spont casting isnt too huge an ability, i only have so many spell slots, and they're usually used for buff spells.with a smattering of non combat type things (mind raid, speak with dead, commune, etc) if i burn slots on domain casting, i lose some of my buffs.
holy order of the stars:
requires, 3rd level cleric spells, skill focus know religion, know religion 8 ranks, know history 4 ranks.
BAB as cleric, saves as cleric
1st lvl gains an extra domain
3rd level gains trustworthy feat (+2 diplomacy and gather info)
5th gains low end lay on hands ability
6th gains an aura of courage type ability, (+4 bonuses on saves vs outsiders)
7th: adds wis bonus to melee rolls
10th can spont cast from any domain he owns (was originally a permanent holy aura spell, but i talked the dm out of that one) to be fair to him, he's never dmed a high level campaign under 3rd ed, we've normally died after about 5th or 6th.
the spont casting isnt too huge an ability, i only have so many spell slots, and they're usually used for buff spells.with a smattering of non combat type things (mind raid, speak with dead, commune, etc) if i burn slots on domain casting, i lose some of my buffs.
Taren Seeker
First Post
Um...no. Lot of weak abilities there, but that is more than made up for by lvl 7 and 10.
You're using the spont ability to cast TS, presumably more than 1/day. That IS a huge ability.
Cracked.
You're using the spont ability to cast TS, presumably more than 1/day. That IS a huge ability.
Cracked.
A few things are left off of your write-up, BTW: Hit Dice and spell casting increase? Do you get a 1:1 increase in cleric spellcasting ability and d8 HD? I'm guessing that's the case.
I'm not going to make a blanket statement that the PrC is broken or unbalanced out-of-hand.
I will say, however, that the powers you pick up are out of step with the extremely easy prerequisites.
This is a class you can easily qualify for as 5th-level character.
Way, way too easy and quick for such a potent class like that.
Sure, there are powerful PrCs that even rival this one in raw power, but their prereqs are far more stringent and/or costly. I see nothing in this one's prereqs that aren't a cake-walk and/or already a given for most clerics to take regardless.
That's my take.
I'm not going to make a blanket statement that the PrC is broken or unbalanced out-of-hand.
I will say, however, that the powers you pick up are out of step with the extremely easy prerequisites.
This is a class you can easily qualify for as 5th-level character.
Way, way too easy and quick for such a potent class like that.
Sure, there are powerful PrCs that even rival this one in raw power, but their prereqs are far more stringent and/or costly. I see nothing in this one's prereqs that aren't a cake-walk and/or already a given for most clerics to take regardless.
That's my take.
silentspace
First Post
Nerfing a PC who's been played since lvl 1 is a poor solution, IMO. I think you have too much power, but what's the "right" amount of power anyway? It all depends on the campaign.
But what's wierd is that you are the only PC who's been powered up! And what's wierder is that your opponents aren't powered up! Instead of putting you up against opponents 5 CR higher than you, I think your DM should juice up your opponents in the same way you're juiced up, and/or find some other ways to stack the deck so that the encounter is more equal.
Just my two cents.
Edit Ohh yeah I was gonna mention the prereqs too. A new domain at 6th level, practically for free?
But what's wierd is that you are the only PC who's been powered up! And what's wierder is that your opponents aren't powered up! Instead of putting you up against opponents 5 CR higher than you, I think your DM should juice up your opponents in the same way you're juiced up, and/or find some other ways to stack the deck so that the encounter is more equal.
Just my two cents.
Edit Ohh yeah I was gonna mention the prereqs too. A new domain at 6th level, practically for free?
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