Cleric turning out of control...undead adventures becoming impossible...

[Celtavian]

Recently, I have noticed cleric turning is out of control. Magic items such as the Amulet of Undead Turning and the Sacred ability for armor raising the effective level of a cleric for turning combined with feats like Quicken and Empower turning and special abilities like Greater Turning are turning the fight against undead into a joke. Is anyone else experiencing a similiar type of power inflation with cleric turning?

Just today I ran an encounter with a level 18 Vampire Wizard/Archmage with +4 Turn resistance, and the 15th level cleric turned him because she had an Amulet of Undead Turning and the Sacred ability on her armor that increased her effective level for turning. Now if the player had Greater Turning, he would have basically destroyed the major undead bad guy in the encounter no save allowed.

I don't blame my player in anyway, he was just using what was available in the core rules for cleric to develop a really good turning cleric since his character worships Kelemvor. Still, the core rules seem to have really given too many effective level boosting items to clerics that combine with certain feats (Empower and Quicken Turning) and abilities (Greater Turning from Eye of Horus Re or Radiant Servant) that really make undead modules almost a joke for a cleric.

What are the opinions of other DM's who have dealt with cleric built for turning?

Note: My group has agreed to half the effective level bonus for turning items to make undead a viable enemy again.

 

[Aaron2]

I don't blame my player in anyway, he was just using what was available in the core rules for cleric to develop a really good turning cleric since his character worships Kelemvor.

A character who as specialized in turning, by taking feats etc, should be good at it. However, I found that by simply including a few weaker undead monsters around the BBEG makes it close to turn proof. Plus, you get the cool effect of the PC coming in and vaporizing all the BBEG's ferocious looking minions. They feel good vaping monsters and you are left with your BBEG untouched (which is all you wanted to begin with). Don't forget spells like Unhallow which should be always up in the BBEG's lair considering it has a one year duration. Finally, if the players have magic items to assist turning, the BBEG might have some to help resist it.

Try adding a few undead looking constructs to help get rid of the players daily turning attempt.


Aaron

 

[DragonLancer]

Thats the problem when you start adding and combining feats and items from outside the core books. I've found that they boost the power of some characters far higher than they should go. Its true that a character should be good at what it does but not when it makes game play and scenario design difficult.

 

[Umbran]

A character who has spent so many feats and so much wealth on doing one thing should be good at it. You'll notice, though, how he won't be quite so god at much else? That's balance. He'll breeze through undead like they're made of straw, sure. And when he meets up with something that's not undead, he won't have many good tools at his disposal. It is a trade-off - gain in focus, lose in breadth.

"I went to the doctor and I said, 'Doctor, it hurts when I do this!' So the doctor tells me, 'Don't do that!'" If undead-only adventures are problematic, don't do undead-only adventures.

 

[Squire James]

Make sure you DON'T extend the Turn Undead tables... no results better than 22. This means the BBEG undead need to have an effective HD of 5 more than the cleric's turning level (with augmentations) to be immune to that cleric's turning.

The natural Turn Resistance of vampires and liches make them good choices for BBEG's. Next, Unhallow the area for that -4 to turning checks (that makes it more difficult to reach that 22 needed for the best result). If that's still not good enough, simply increase the undead's HD until it is beyond the PC's current turning limits! If you're worried about overwhelming the PC's, just multiclass them in inefficient ways (a vampire Wiz17 might cream a level 10 party, but a vampire Ftr8/Wiz9 probably won't).

 

[tarchon]

In 3.5, Desecrate (Unhallow retooled) gets better with an altar or such to an evil deity, up to -6 on Turning checks. Also, smart undead might target poisons or spells with Charisma-damaging effects on pesky clerics and paladins.

 

[milotha]

My advice would be to

1) Put in minions of other lower level undead. Tempt the player into using their turn attempts before the BBEG.

2) Have the BBEG be surrounded by minions, so that he is less likely to be effected.

3) Design up a single BBEG that is maximized against turning - for one encounter.

4) Set up a situation where the cleric has to choose between say turning or some other action, such as casting a dispel magic.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IMO turning undead needs to be rewritten from the ground up. Second, control what you allow in your campaign. You're allowed to ban amulets of undead turning.

3rd, give a few templates, specifically liches, crazy bonuses against turn undead (and nerf the Hit Dice of powerful zombies for purposes of turn undead). It's silly when a lich goes poof but his lower CR zombie bodyguard just kind of stands there...

 

[Kormydigar]

Recently, I have noticed cleric turning is out of control. Magic items such as the Amulet of Undead Turning and the Sacred ability for armor raising the effective level of a cleric for turning combined with feats like Quicken and Empower turning and special abilities like Greater Turning are turning the fight against undead into a joke. Is anyone else experiencing a similiar type of power inflation with cleric turning?

Just today I ran an encounter with a level 18 Vampire Wizard/Archmage with +4 Turn resistance, and the 15th level cleric turned him because she had an Amulet of Undead Turning and the Sacred ability on her armor that increased her effective level for turning. Now if the player had Greater Turning, he would have basically destroyed the major undead bad guy in the encounter no save allowed.

I don't blame my player in anyway, he was just using what was available in the core rules for cleric to develop a really good turning cleric since his character worships Kelemvor. Still, the core rules seem to have really given too many effective level boosting items to clerics that combine with certain feats (Empower and Quicken Turning) and abilities (Greater Turning from Eye of Horus Re or Radiant Servant) that really make undead modules almost a joke for a cleric.

What are the opinions of other DM's who have dealt with cleric built for turning?

Note: My group has agreed to half the effective level bonus for turning items to make undead a viable enemy again.

I agree with Dragonlancer on this issue. Many of the power problems in 3.X edition have come from the combined effects of powers, feats, and items from so many sources. Some of the material out there will playtest fine when used only with the core rules, but breaks down when combined with the core rules AND the inclusion of other 3rd party products. I am not putting down any publishers material here, but as a DM one has to be very careful of how much non core material is allowed into the game at one time.

With that being said, here is something that can be done to keep the really BAD undead villans from becoming turning fodder: Change the turning rules for undead with templates/ character levels. Make beings such as vampires, liches, and death knights really special. To do this change you give every one of these baddies a FOW or Force of Will Score. FOW = INT+WIS+CHA+HD/levels. A cleric attempting to affect such a creature with holy or unholy power will have a similar score. Instead of a turning attempt it would be a d20+FOW opposed roll.

This type of major change to the rules should not be sprung on players by surprise, but rather discussed as a possible house rule. It is something I am working on as an inclusion in my next campaign.Just an idea, use it if you like

 

[zodiki]

IMO turning undead needs to be rewritten from the ground up. Second, control what you allow in your campaign. You're allowed to ban amulets of undead turning.

3rd, give a few templates, specifically liches, crazy bonuses against turn undead (and nerf the Hit Dice of powerful zombies for purposes of turn undead). It's silly when a lich goes poof but his lower CR zombie bodyguard just kind of stands there...

I agree. One such alternative in Complete Divine makes turning or bolstering do positive and negative damage respectively in a burst pattern. The undead targets get a save for half damage.