Cleric turning out of control...undead adventures becoming impossible...
- Thread starter Celtavian
- Start date
Doctor Futurity
Hero
One suggestion: Veto the magic item. I've never noticed a problem with turning, but I tailor my games to the PCs, so I rarely findmyself with a villain who hasn't been designed with the PC's abilities in mind. Likewise, it sounds like these were custom-designed high level characters, and you let the PCs spend wealth appropriate to the level without any restrictions (which can be a lot if you go by the DMG; I usually allow half); such games are bound to have interesting surprises, and it is rewarding for a player to discover that he designed a character which was able to trump your vampire. I usually exert more control over what items a pregen PC can and can't have; a cap limit of either GP cost or XP cost on items, although to be honest, I would probably not have vetoed the turning necklace question (but would have either boosted the levels of the vampire, or added some more undead in to the mix).
Pretty much, I find that knowing your PCs before hand, and tailoring the module accordingly, is the finest way to eliminate all boo boos in the storytelling, and if the players still manage to surprise me, then I commend them for their innovation.
Pretty much, I find that knowing your PCs before hand, and tailoring the module accordingly, is the finest way to eliminate all boo boos in the storytelling, and if the players still manage to surprise me, then I commend them for their innovation.
Last edited:
Turning Undead is generally underpowered.
The only time it is a problem is with Undead with character levels - e.g. that classed Vampire you discussed earlier. Instead of getting a flat +4 Turn Resistance, that Vampire should be getting a +2 Turn Resistance for every 5 hit dice or part thereof; thus at 18 HD with a +8 Turn Resistance you have a much more deadly foe. Alternatively, perhaps a bonus to Turn Resistance equal to the Charisma bonus of the Vampire?
Mere "melee" undead, with plenty of Hit Dice but a lower Challenge Rating are rarely affected by Turn Undead.
Cheers!
The only time it is a problem is with Undead with character levels - e.g. that classed Vampire you discussed earlier. Instead of getting a flat +4 Turn Resistance, that Vampire should be getting a +2 Turn Resistance for every 5 hit dice or part thereof; thus at 18 HD with a +8 Turn Resistance you have a much more deadly foe. Alternatively, perhaps a bonus to Turn Resistance equal to the Charisma bonus of the Vampire?
Mere "melee" undead, with plenty of Hit Dice but a lower Challenge Rating are rarely affected by Turn Undead.
Cheers!
iceifur
Explorer
Also check out the variant Turning rules in Unearthed Arcana. IIRC (don't have the book on me right now), the variant makes Turning into a roll of 1d20 + (something or other) against a DC equal to 10 + (something or other, if anything) + Turn Resistance + Cha mod. With the example given (a vampire), the BBEG's +4 to Charisma actually would actually matter a bit more.
--B--
--B--
Henry
Autoexreginated
Celtavian said:
My opinion: Don't short-change the turning power; instead, think differently. (As Steve Jobs would say, "think different.")
Remember these things about turning:
--Turning ONLY works within 60 feet. Any intelligent undead master would not appear within 60 feet of a party in order to be threatened bodily, turning or no.
--Turning does not work if the target has full cover.
--Turning only happens a limited number of times per day. Send minions in waves.
--An undead cleric of an evil god can BOLSTER himself against turning with his own rebukes. He can bolster his minions, as well.
--Unhallows and desecrates make turning problematic, or at LEAST less effective.
--Turning only happens a limited number of times per day. Can your cleric turn 11 or 15 times? If so, then put it to use, with everything from negative energy zones, to waves of evil undead, to crises that can ONLY be solved by someone with oodles of turning power.
--A minor assumption: Someone who has this much turning ability is going to REEK of holy power to undead. They are going to see this guy coming a mile away, notably by the trail of undead ashes if nothing else. Undead will target him first, and try to use traps or non-undead means to destroy him. (The Paladin Malachite from Piratecat's Story Hour is a PRIME target for the ghouls of the white kingdom, because if he kills them they STAY dead. PCat doesn't target him singly all the time, but the undead would have been idiots not to realize he's coming their way, and plan accordingly.)
Ogrork the Mighty
Explorer
I wouldn't blame the players for the use of their magic items. Afterall, the DM approved it so it's no use in crying over spilt milk.
I agree that turning is powerful - maybe too powerful. Even with the fixes some people gave suggested, clerics can turn every round until their uses are used up. That's usually way more than enough to smoke all the undead enemies.
I recently realized that undead HD are increased by desecrate for calculating how many undead are effected (not just the max HD effected), so that's something.
But yeah, cleric turning is powerful and kinda undermines undead encounters (at least for me).
I agree that turning is powerful - maybe too powerful. Even with the fixes some people gave suggested, clerics can turn every round until their uses are used up. That's usually way more than enough to smoke all the undead enemies.
I recently realized that undead HD are increased by desecrate for calculating how many undead are effected (not just the max HD effected), so that's something.
But yeah, cleric turning is powerful and kinda undermines undead encounters (at least for me).
jerichothebard
First Post
I use alternate turning rules IMC, which seem to work pretty well. I ran the numbers QUITE extensively, and by baseline, they work out pretty evenly with WOTC's standard. However, they are more flexible.
Here's how it works:
Cleric rolls a turning check, which is 1d20 + CHA + cleric level + other bonuses as applicable (i.e. synergy from Knowledge religion or magical items).
Then roll the standard 2d6 turning damage. Each potentially effected undead creature within 60 ft rolls a Will save vs. turning check, with turn resistance as a bonus. Desecrate, bolstering and other similar effects provide their normal bonuses to the Will save, as well.
Greater turning (from clerics with the Sun domain, or other sources) destroys as written.
This has several effects - #1, it makes it a little more randomized, #2, it ties turn resistance into an attribute, and #3 there is a lot of room to bolster the BBEUndeadG. You can give him extra turn resistance, which is only good against turning, you can give him a higher-than-average WIS (which is great for undead evil clerics!), you can give him the Iron Will feat, or desecrate the room, or bolster him with negative energy from an evil cleric... or all of the above.
Mathematically, this seems to work out pretty well. The places where specific creatures deviate from the normal curve are, IMO, better that way anyway - some of the unintelligent or weaker undead are a little easier to turn, while some of the more powerful and strong-willed undead are not so easily turned, when compared to baseline.
A vampire or lich with evil cleric levels would be exceedingly difficult to turn, much less destroy, especially with a few rounds to prepare.
As a side note, I agree with the other comments that your guy should be pretty good at turning - that's what he does. But, if undead are a force in your game, and if they are at all intelligent, they will know that clerics like this guy exist, and plan accordingly.
That would mean that if an item like sacred armor exists, so too might unholy armor, providing a +4 to turn resistance, or some such. Quicken Turning works for evil clerics too, and becomes Quickened Bolster...
good luck!
jtb
Here's how it works:
Cleric rolls a turning check, which is 1d20 + CHA + cleric level + other bonuses as applicable (i.e. synergy from Knowledge religion or magical items).
Then roll the standard 2d6 turning damage. Each potentially effected undead creature within 60 ft rolls a Will save vs. turning check, with turn resistance as a bonus. Desecrate, bolstering and other similar effects provide their normal bonuses to the Will save, as well.
Greater turning (from clerics with the Sun domain, or other sources) destroys as written.
This has several effects - #1, it makes it a little more randomized, #2, it ties turn resistance into an attribute, and #3 there is a lot of room to bolster the BBEUndeadG. You can give him extra turn resistance, which is only good against turning, you can give him a higher-than-average WIS (which is great for undead evil clerics!), you can give him the Iron Will feat, or desecrate the room, or bolster him with negative energy from an evil cleric... or all of the above.
Mathematically, this seems to work out pretty well. The places where specific creatures deviate from the normal curve are, IMO, better that way anyway - some of the unintelligent or weaker undead are a little easier to turn, while some of the more powerful and strong-willed undead are not so easily turned, when compared to baseline.
A vampire or lich with evil cleric levels would be exceedingly difficult to turn, much less destroy, especially with a few rounds to prepare.
As a side note, I agree with the other comments that your guy should be pretty good at turning - that's what he does. But, if undead are a force in your game, and if they are at all intelligent, they will know that clerics like this guy exist, and plan accordingly.
That would mean that if an item like sacred armor exists, so too might unholy armor, providing a +4 to turn resistance, or some such. Quicken Turning works for evil clerics too, and becomes Quickened Bolster...
good luck!
jtb
kigmatzomat
Legend
Henry said:
Other things to do are non-magic stealth. Master vampires should get body-double vampiric spawn who do the face-to-face with heroes whenever plausible. Liches should take off their robes and shinies then shuffle about groaning "brainss...." while a programmed illusion or Animated (non-necromantic) skeleton plays the role of evil wizard.
Add in stuff like Dispel Magic targeting the turn-boosting items and the occassional antimagic field. IIRC, Turning is a SU ability and can't penetrate antimagic making it a safe zone. Really, who expects a lich to put an AMF around his throne?
Someone
Adventurer
So the undead guy is turned. So what? (unless he has greater turning, that is) He´s back in 1 minute. Give him some means to teleport, dimension door, turn ethereal or whatever. IIRC, he has to flee, not run away pathetically on foot and duck behind a corner waiting to be slaughtered.
Henry
Autoexreginated
Ogrork the Mighty said:
To me, it's not so much a "too powerful" question as more of a "right tool for the job" question. A party without a cleric facing undead is up a swift creek without a paddle. (I have players who can attest to that).
Not to say that one should indiscriminately hand out or allow magic items that boost turning to 150% of the cleric's ability, but I suggest to let Turning be effective where undead are concerned. This could be done without unnecessarily depowering the cleric.
One last note: I ALWAYS try to be careful about handing out items that boost someone's class abilities, exactly for balance reasons. You never know what creative things you may have to dream up to rebalance the equation.
Similar Threads
