Cleric turning out of control...undead adventures becoming impossible...
- Thread starter Celtavian
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Turn Resistant undead:
Lich: +4 Turn resistance
Desecrate spell with a shrine to the lich's deity: -6 on turn attemps in a 20' radius.
Unhallow: -4 on turn attempts in a 40' radius
This gives a -10 on the clerics turning checks, and a +4 on the lich's HD. If you want an explanation for the cleric spells helping the arcane lich, give the lich the Leadership feat and a cleric cohort.
Or you can give the lich a Darkskull, which provides a portable unhallow effect (although it's a little overpriced at 60,000 gp)
Lich: +4 Turn resistance
Desecrate spell with a shrine to the lich's deity: -6 on turn attemps in a 20' radius.
Unhallow: -4 on turn attempts in a 40' radius
This gives a -10 on the clerics turning checks, and a +4 on the lich's HD. If you want an explanation for the cleric spells helping the arcane lich, give the lich the Leadership feat and a cleric cohort.
Or you can give the lich a Darkskull, which provides a portable unhallow effect (although it's a little overpriced at 60,000 gp)
jodyjohnson
Adventurer
The main problem with Liches and Vampires is that their CR is higher than their HD.
Tossing a CR14 lich against a Clr10 Turning smackdown.
CR14, HD 12, Effective Turn 16 HD (under both spells for check penalties -10).
Clr 10, improved turning +1 TL, sacred armor +2 TL, phylactery +4 TL
Worst possible Turn check 17-4 or 13 HD (enough to take out an even CR lich). Best possible with no bonus 17HD - turned on 17+, median result (11) 14 HD (which would turn a CR+2).
With 18 Chr, Circlet of Persuasion it's a +7 on the check.
Worst possible Turn still 13 HD, best is 19 HD, and median is 16 HD. Turned on a 10+.
Outside of the desecrate/unhallow it's an auto turn. (Worst result with a +7 bonus is -1 CL)
Gut instinct would be to make all the +1 Turn level effects Sacred bonuses and they would not stack. Cap the bonus from items at +2 (lower phylactery to +2).
Best you could do is +2 turn level base and then leave the Chr check items since they have a counter in the spells.
Against an even CR Lich at 10th
Lich HD 8, effective 12.
Cleric 10, effective 12. Even up depending on bonuses.
Problem is that a bunch of undead have HD way over their CR; some of which should be turn bait. And this would make them un-turnable.
I would probably leave stacking but drop the phylactery to +2, and then increase the Turn resistance of Undead with HD lower than their CR instead. Hard to turn undead should probably have effective HD at least +4 over their CR rather than only +2. High HD undead (namely larger skeletons and zombies) which should be turn bait could get Turn Vulnerability sufficient to bring their effective HD down to CR+4.
Tossing a CR14 lich against a Clr10 Turning smackdown.
CR14, HD 12, Effective Turn 16 HD (under both spells for check penalties -10).
Clr 10, improved turning +1 TL, sacred armor +2 TL, phylactery +4 TL
Worst possible Turn check 17-4 or 13 HD (enough to take out an even CR lich). Best possible with no bonus 17HD - turned on 17+, median result (11) 14 HD (which would turn a CR+2).
With 18 Chr, Circlet of Persuasion it's a +7 on the check.
Worst possible Turn still 13 HD, best is 19 HD, and median is 16 HD. Turned on a 10+.
Outside of the desecrate/unhallow it's an auto turn. (Worst result with a +7 bonus is -1 CL)
Gut instinct would be to make all the +1 Turn level effects Sacred bonuses and they would not stack. Cap the bonus from items at +2 (lower phylactery to +2).
Best you could do is +2 turn level base and then leave the Chr check items since they have a counter in the spells.
Against an even CR Lich at 10th
Lich HD 8, effective 12.
Cleric 10, effective 12. Even up depending on bonuses.
Problem is that a bunch of undead have HD way over their CR; some of which should be turn bait. And this would make them un-turnable.
I would probably leave stacking but drop the phylactery to +2, and then increase the Turn resistance of Undead with HD lower than their CR instead. Hard to turn undead should probably have effective HD at least +4 over their CR rather than only +2. High HD undead (namely larger skeletons and zombies) which should be turn bait could get Turn Vulnerability sufficient to bring their effective HD down to CR+4.
I don't think any of these changes are really necessary. It only comes up when two conditions are met:
1) The cleric has all (or most) of the possible turn enhancing magic items and feats.
2) The campaign focuses around undead, or most of the combats involve undead.
If only the first condition is met, it's not a problem for the DM, it's a problem for the player. They have all these anti-undead magic items and feats that don't come up in most situations, effectively being useless feats/magic items most of the time. The phylactery of undead turning also takes up the valuable neck slot, so it's harder to get a Wisdom enhancement.
If only the second condition is met, it's not a problem either, as the cleric isn't "uber undead turning guy" and the combats precede pretty much as normal.
1) The cleric has all (or most) of the possible turn enhancing magic items and feats.
2) The campaign focuses around undead, or most of the combats involve undead.
If only the first condition is met, it's not a problem for the DM, it's a problem for the player. They have all these anti-undead magic items and feats that don't come up in most situations, effectively being useless feats/magic items most of the time. The phylactery of undead turning also takes up the valuable neck slot, so it's harder to get a Wisdom enhancement.
If only the second condition is met, it's not a problem either, as the cleric isn't "uber undead turning guy" and the combats precede pretty much as normal.
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re
What you say is true for low level characters or for DM's who run a very limited campaign. I run a rather liberal campaign where I give my player's alot of leeway within the boundaries of the rules.
Basically, they mostly wear magic items with multiple abilities designed by either one of the Pc's or a magic wielder of some power from a cosmopolitan city with large resources. They didn't mind waiting the requisite amount of time either way.
The cleric I mentioned added the Phylactery of Undead Turning to her Periapt of Wisdom. At high levels, such enhancements to already existing items are affordable to a group of 16th level characters who just finished looting a sixteenth plus level adventure and selling the booty.
I really don't mind my players being able to upgrade their magic items. I just modify those that stack to give too good of a benefit like the Phylacery of Undead Turning combined with the Sacred armor ability.
Caliban said:
What you say is true for low level characters or for DM's who run a very limited campaign. I run a rather liberal campaign where I give my player's alot of leeway within the boundaries of the rules.
Basically, they mostly wear magic items with multiple abilities designed by either one of the Pc's or a magic wielder of some power from a cosmopolitan city with large resources. They didn't mind waiting the requisite amount of time either way.
The cleric I mentioned added the Phylactery of Undead Turning to her Periapt of Wisdom. At high levels, such enhancements to already existing items are affordable to a group of 16th level characters who just finished looting a sixteenth plus level adventure and selling the booty.
I really don't mind my players being able to upgrade their magic items. I just modify those that stack to give too good of a benefit like the Phylacery of Undead Turning combined with the Sacred armor ability.
jodyjohnson
Adventurer
After going through the MM2 and FF it really seems like those undead are designed with a possible +7 Turning level for dedicated Clerics.
The only real weak Undead seem to be the ones which keep their class abilities and then increase their CR based on their undead abilities (Ghost, Lich, Vampire). For template undead that keep their class abilities I would allow their Charisma bonus to add to their Turn Resistance. So within the type you could vary EHD depending on how much Charisma they had without raising their class levels and HD (thus their CR).
It would be a variant instead of giving them Turn resistance items with enhancement/profane bonuses. Possibly make it a feat available to classed undead if it needs more rationale.
The only real weak Undead seem to be the ones which keep their class abilities and then increase their CR based on their undead abilities (Ghost, Lich, Vampire). For template undead that keep their class abilities I would allow their Charisma bonus to add to their Turn Resistance. So within the type you could vary EHD depending on how much Charisma they had without raising their class levels and HD (thus their CR).
It would be a variant instead of giving them Turn resistance items with enhancement/profane bonuses. Possibly make it a feat available to classed undead if it needs more rationale.
Chris Parker
First Post
I think these were already mentioned but...
Grim Psion - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b (easily adaptable to Grim Wizard)
Dread Champion - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628a (fairly easily adaptable to a fighter. replace half of those powers discovered with feats, or something silly like that)
Lady/Lord of the Dead - http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x (a nasty class to be sure - can also be modified for other sorts of characters...)
Good luck. Ive temporarily removed Turning from my campaigns. Ill be redoing the system myself... try and make it a bit simpler and elegant. Ill tell you if I get any good ideas.
Grim Psion - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b (easily adaptable to Grim Wizard)
Dread Champion - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628a (fairly easily adaptable to a fighter. replace half of those powers discovered with feats, or something silly like that)
Lady/Lord of the Dead - http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x (a nasty class to be sure - can also be modified for other sorts of characters...)
Good luck. Ive temporarily removed Turning from my campaigns. Ill be redoing the system myself... try and make it a bit simpler and elegant. Ill tell you if I get any good ideas.
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