Cleric turning out of control...undead adventures becoming impossible...

[Drakmar]

Um... if the PC can have an item that improves his ability to turn.. why can the BBEG Undead Lich/Vampire dude have an item that makes him harder to turn?...


plus.. don't forget I believe (could be wrong) that high level clerics can also be turned. So may the BBEG a high level evil cleric.. and well.. turn him right back.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Change the rules of turn undead. Match it up with the way that the rest of the game works. Good templates are the anti-outsider spells like dictum or blasphemy - simply choose some appropriate effects for undead to get hit by and run with it. I'd suggest adding a will save, and making the DC equal to 10+1/2 cleric level+charisma bonus, as well as shuffling the effects up a bit to affect more undead.

ie:
undead hit dice - effect
caster level + 5 or more - dazed
caster level + 4 - dazed and weakened (2d6 strength loss for 2d4 rounds)
caster level - dazed, weakened and panicked
caster level-5 : dazed,weakened, panicked, destroyed

And greater turning would add +5 to your caster level for one turn per day.

 

[Particle_Man]

Here's a more radical solution if you want to make undead REALLY scary.

Ban clerics, paladins and all classes that can turn undead.

Replace the divine healer with Favored Soul from Complete Divine.

 

[Particle_Man]

plus.. don't forget I believe (could be wrong) that high level clerics can also be turned. So may the BBEG a high level evil cleric.. and well.. turn him right back.

Ah, you are suffering from a malady that I too suffer from...I call it edition fugue, where the memories of rules of earlier editions of D&D and AD&D interfere with one's current understanding of the 3rd ed or 3.5 ed rules.

In this case, there were rules in 1st ed. AD&D that allowed high-level evil clerics to turn (and I think possibly even destroy outright) paladins. I had that happen to me once, and it was annoying! But this doesn't exist in 3rd ed.

 

[res]

Ah, you are suffering from a malady that I too suffer from...I call it edition fugue, where the memories of rules of earlier editions of D&D and AD&D interfere with one's current understanding of the 3rd ed or 3.5 ed rules.

In this case, there were rules in 1st ed. AD&D that allowed high-level evil clerics to turn (and I think possibly even destroy outright) paladins. I had that happen to me once, and it was annoying! But this doesn't exist in 3rd ed.

You're right in that those rules don't exist, but as I recall, the evil clerics can bolster their undead compainions.

I don't know the rules because its been a while since I DMed (just starting a campaign now) but I belive that an evil cleric can bolster the undead to the point where it would be an opposed roll between the good guy and the bad guy.

 

[Celtavian]

re

A character who as specialized in turning, by taking feats etc, should be good at it. However, I found that by simply including a few weaker undead monsters around the BBEG makes it close to turn proof.

Multiple turn attempts that do 1.5 times turning damage. They turn alot of undead.

Don't forget spells like Unhallow which should be always up in the BBEG's lair considering it has a one year duration.

Doesn't decrease effective level, just a penalty on turning checks. A 15th level cleric with Sacred and an Amulet of Undead Turning turns as 21st level cleric.

 

[Celtavian]

re

My advice would be to

1) Put in minions of other lower level undead. Tempt the player into using their turn attempts before the BBEG.

Empower Turning is 1.5 times turning damage. The cleric mow through the little guys without making much of a dent in her turning ability.

2) Have the BBEG be surrounded by minions, so that he is less likely to be effected.

After they have mowed through the minions, the cleric usually still has turning.

3) Design up a single BBEG that is maximized against turning - for one encounter.

I did. He was three levels higher than the party with +4 turn resistance. The 15th level cleric turns as a 21st level cleric. Rolling on the table she received a Cleric level +1 on the turn check, not a very hard check, and turned a BBEG 7 levels higher than her level. 7 levels higher. That is obscene.

4) Set up a situation where the cleric has to choose between say turning or some other action, such as casting a dispel magic.

Quicken Turning. Turn as a free action and still able to cast a spell.

They really gave the cleric some magic items and feats that make them undead killing machines. Throw in extra turning and they have enough power to make short work of an undead lair.

 

[Celtavian]

I agree with Dragonlancer on this issue. Many of the power problems in 3.X edition have come from the combined effects of powers, feats, and items from so many sources. Some of the material out there will playtest fine when used only with the core rules, but breaks down when combined with the core rules AND the inclusion of other 3rd party products. I am not putting down any publishers material here, but as a DM one has to be very careful of how much non core material is allowed into the game at one time.

With that being said, here is something that can be done to keep the really BAD undead villans from becoming turning fodder: Change the turning rules for undead with templates/ character levels. Make beings such as vampires, liches, and death knights really special. To do this change you give every one of these baddies a FOW or Force of Will Score. FOW = INT+WIS+CHA+HD/levels. A cleric attempting to affect such a creature with holy or unholy power will have a similar score. Instead of a turning attempt it would be a d20+FOW opposed roll.

This type of major change to the rules should not be sprung on players by surprise, but rather discussed as a possible house rule. It is something I am working on as an inclusion in my next campaign.Just an idea, use it if you like

You are aware that all these items and feats are from the Core Rules, The Complete Divine and The Book of Exatled Deeds? All WotC books supposedly tested in house.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I agree that this stuff can be a complete headache. Hate it when balanced rules throw me a power curveball. Yes, Tome and Blood - I'm looking at you and your Persistent Metamagic.

Could you sit down out of game with the cleric character, explain the problem and get him to re-tool his character without some of the problem items/powers? He can keep an undead killer focus, but pick up something else as well...

Some players might go for that, although it could kill the game for others.


If it's an in game fix...

IIRC, a Death Knight is immune to turning...

A player can't turn what they don't know is dead. Ex - a BBEG could pretend to be human/demon/etc? A combination like Mind Blank/Nondetection and Disguise Self could work - they may be able to see through the disguise, but still can't make out what's under there? A smart BBEG could even leave clues leading to the 'wrong' answer.

The simple lich is good for this - even if they get destroyed, it's a quick return trip to their portable home! Then back again 24 hours later. My PCs learned to really hate these guys in 2nd ed days!

Even better, something like Piratecat's Soder BBEG - with 'corpse mobility' - current body blown up by turning (or spellcasting!)? Time to hijack another one. He seems able to do this even more than a lich and is far too cool!

Keep undead minions so the cleric can showboat, just don't use undead BBEGs with low hit dice...

Turn it into a plot point for a while - undead are swarming the land - turning has gone unstable - it still works most of the time but it's having strange side effects - plagues of locusts, rains of blood? And it's getting worse. Why has the link to the positive energy plane been disrupted? Who is responsible? Aaagh, the sky is falling. Etc.

 

[Plane Sailing]

In my campaign, after finding a whole lot of denuded villages the PCs come across the evil wizard and his cavern with his army of over 500 zombies. The cleric didn't have nearly enough turning damage to destroy even half of them - it required using up all the charges in the parties lightning bolt wand and some legwork by the fighters in the end.

It is clear that in your situation the problem is the amulet of undead turning and the sacred armour - specifically the stacking of those two effects.

Issue 1 - you shouldn't have given them out as treasure or allowed them to both be built/purchased. I always do a sanity check on potential items and item abuse.

Issue 2 - Rule that they give the same (sacred) bonus to turning so they don't stack. It sounds like they ought to anyway

Issue 3 - Inflate BBEG HD so that they cannot be turned.

Issue 4 - doesn't quicken turning have an adverse effect on turning check or turning damage? empower turning used to do so in DoF (but I've not seen CDivine, so I don't know what thats like)