Cleric turning out of control...undead adventures becoming impossible...

[Umbran]

One quick fix on the escalating turning checks is to rule that all bonuses from 3rd party material are "sacred" bonuses unless otherwise noted.

It's generally considered unfair to change how the rules work after the player has made their choices. Altering the mix of challenges to fit the party is one thing. Depowering the cleric's chosen feats and abilities after the fact is another.

If you are going to change the bonuses (so that they won't stack so well), the player should also be given the opportunity to re-choose some of those feats.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Sure, undead minions can be sent in waves but when that is required in every major undead master encounter, it gets monotonous and uninspiring. Besides, any player worth his salt with a good turning ability isn't going to be wasting it all on minions; he'll be saving it for the BBEG.

I agree that any changes to the rules need to be fairly discussed and players should have the option to alter their character choices if need be. I now keep a careful eye on magic items that improve turning; something I didn't do before...

 

[Enkhidu]

So the undead guy is turned. So what? (unless he has greater turning, that is) He´s back in 1 minute. Give him some means to teleport, dimension door, turn ethereal or whatever. IIRC, he has to flee, not run away pathetically on foot and duck behind a corner waiting to be slaughtered.

Y'know, I watched the Mummy again last night, and it struck me that every time that the BBEG saw a cat he was turned - he turned into a miniature sandstorm and fled. Something like that would be about right for a vamp that gets turned.

 

[JDJarvis]

read the PHB, under Effect and Duration of Turning it says- Tunred undead flee from you by the best and fastest means available to them.

Vampires can turn to bats and fly away, or turn into mist and flee through routes lots of PCs can't easily follow.

There is no reason to nerf turning just have the monsters react as they should.

 

[d12]

Sean K Reynolds on this

 

[Mr. Kaze]

Um... if the PC can have an item that improves his ability to turn.. why can the BBEG Undead Lich/Vampire dude have an item that makes him harder to turn?

Yes. I've been giving some of my undead earrings that give a +1 stacking bonus to turn resistance. The BBEG will have several. But they're still not as effective as I'd hoped, so perhaps you might be more interested in the following templates:

- Death Knight -- can't be turned.
- Revenant -- can't be turned.
- Spellstitched -- +2 turn resistance and gets spell-like abilities according to wisdom. A vampire monk that can enervate the slow-poke cleric?

It's probably too late to house-rule turning capabilities (though I completely agree that having no saves and forcing a mental condition on creatures that are immune to mind-influencing effects is just bizarre). So it'd probably be better in your case to take a break from massive undead-fests.

Other thing to ask yourself is -- how many of those turning level bonuses stack? I might let Improved Turning and the Periapt of Undead Turning stack, but I don't think I'd let anything else stack with the Periapt...

::Kaze (has had a couple of really cool vampire-esque critters that got shut down by a rebuking in the first round of combat before being bludgeoned apart and sent home... twice now... so sad.)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Um... if the PC can have an item that improves his ability to turn.. why can the BBEG Undead Lich/Vampire dude have an item that makes him harder to turn?...

Because NPCs have less gear and shouldn't be required to carry a specific item, other than the simple basics.

plus.. don't forget I believe (could be wrong) that high level clerics can also be turned. So may the BBEG a high level evil cleric.. and well.. turn him right back.

Not in 3e (unless the cleric is undead).

undead hit dice - effect
caster level + 5 or more - dazed
caster level + 4 - dazed and weakened (2d6 strength loss for 2d4 rounds)
caster level - dazed, weakened and panicked
caster level-5 : dazed,weakened, panicked, destroyed

Unfortunately, this makes things rather complicated and doesn't help BBEG undead either.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Turning Undead is generally underpowered.

Do you not have the Complete Divine yet? You can build a fairly powerful undead turning cleric, especially if you allow some of the prestige classes as in your game.

The only time it is a problem is with Undead with character levels - e.g. that classed Vampire you discussed earlier. Instead of getting a flat +4 Turn Resistance, that Vampire should be getting a +2 Turn Resistance for every 5 hit dice or part thereof; thus at 18 HD with a +8 Turn Resistance you have a much more deadly foe. Alternatively, perhaps a bonus to Turn Resistance equal to the Charisma bonus of the Vampire?

I halved the number of effective levels a magic item could grant. No combination of magic items should allow a cleric to tack on six effective levels for purposes of turning so that with even a moderate turn check they could turn something 7 or 8 levels higher than their current level. Making an undead 3 or 4 levels higher than the average party level should be a sufficient challenge with a suitable number of minions.

Mere "melee" undead, with plenty of Hit Dice but a lower Challenge Rating are rarely affected by Turn Undead.

Mere melee undead are easily killed by the frontline fighters the majority the time without having to waste turning attempts. Our party fights very efficiently, they will waste one turning attempt at most on such creatures then proceed to beat and blast them down.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Can someone toss me the page number and book for the amulet of undead turning?

I can't find it in BoED, DMG 3.5 or CD.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Can someone toss me the page number and book for the amulet of undead turning?

I can't find it in BoED, DMG 3.5 or CD.

It is in the 3.5 DMG pg. 264 in the wondrous items section. It is called the Phylactery of Undead Turning.