Cleric Tweak Options

[InVinoVeritas]

In any case, with or without Complete Divine or any other books, and whether or not I choose to multiclass in the future (it doesn't look likely), at the present time, I'm aiming for this build:

Cleric 3 (Cloistered Cleric is not an option)
Str 8, Dex 10, Con 8, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 12 (I can't change ability scores)
Domains: Plant, Protection (Could be Plant, Community?)

Skills: Concentration, Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Religion), Spellcraft, (one more free skill)

Feats: Spell Focus(Conjuration), Augment Summoning, (one more feat)

For the third feat, I am still considering Brew Potion, under the assumption that I'll be out of action on occasion, but this way my spells can still be cast.

So far, this doesn't need Complete Divine. I am going to pick it up at some point, but under the assumption that nothing beyond the core is available, how would you advance?

 

[Zaruthustran]

This character's greatest strength is her huge Wisdom, meaning she's got high save DCs. I'd go with that, and take spell focus: enchantment (sanctuary, command, hold person, calm emotions), necromancy (cause fear, blindness/deafness, poison), or evocation (sound burst, flame strike). Then go ahead and take Extra Turning and a Divine feat or two (Heighten Spell and Divine Metamagic is a good combo).

Your biggest weakness is your low con, so consider taking Divine Vigor. Plan on running with Aid and Bear's Endurance. Try to grab a cloak of displacement and ring of evasion ASAP, and familiarise yourself with the rules for withdrawing from combat.

For domains, go with Protection and Good. You'll need the Protection, and the Good domain list includes Holy Smite, Blade Barrier, and Holy Word, all of which will benefit from your high spell DCs. The +1 caster level for Good spells means your Pro from Evil will last just a bit longer and might get a bit more damage from Smite and Word. Consider picking up the Consecrate Spell feat, which lets you make any spell Good.

For skills, I suggest going with your list and scattering a couple points to Know: the planes and Know: history. You have a high Int, so might as well throw a couple points in those two skills so you can attempt those skill checks (or at the least, Aid Another someone else's check). Also consider investing in Heal, so as to help patients with poison or disease saves.

-z

As an aside for the Tower Shield concept, remember that anyone can use a tower shield. You just have to be willing to deal with the nonproficiency penalty.

Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shields.

For a casting cleric the attack penalty won't matter at all, and you can just ditch the shield (move action, or as part of a move since you have +2 BAB) when doing anything requiring a str- or dex- based skill check. The worst thing is that if you start the combat wearing your shield, you'll take its armor check penalty (a whopping -10) on your Initiative check. So if you want to use a shield plan on carrying it on your back and readying it (move action or part of move) during your first turn--AFTER combat starts.

 

[Nyaricus]

So far, this doesn't need Complete Divine. I am going to pick it up at some point, but under the assumption that nothing beyond the core is available, how would you advance?

Mmmmm, I'd steer away from Brew Potion, unless your DM is one to handwave those sorts of things.

I'm also going to give you some more options here, not just from core:

As for PrCs, Human Paragon (from Unearthed Arcana, but free from the SRD right here) is a wonderful thing - and you only lose a single spellcaster level, which is pennies when compared to what you get in 3 levels. The Hierophant (from a FR book) has that Divine Reach ability which allows you to use touch spells from a distance. Yes, that includes healing. Thaumaturgist (DMG) is another good option if you plan to go with Summoner Expert, and is a core option which is a good idea

Oh, and something to keep in mind: IIRC, summoning a monster does't negate Invibility, so if you decide to go for the Geomancer, take a Conjuration Wizard Specialist, and nab Illusion as one of your known spells; you never know when it'll come in useful Also be sure to take a practiced Spellcaster feat for your clerics levels.

cheers,
--N

 

[Nyaricus]

The worst thing is that if you start the combat wearing your shield, you'll take its armor check penalty (a whopping -10) on your Initiative check. So if you want to use a shield plan on carrying it on your back and readying it (move action or part of move) during your first turn--AFTER combat starts.

Where's the rule for this??

--N

 

[nittanytbone]

Your 8 CON is quite possibly crippling. Seriously, you'll be running around with the same HP as sub-par wizard, and with your 8 str, you can't carry heavy armor for decent AC either. Beg your DM to let you shuffle a 10 or 12 into there. When you change systems, you can't necessarily convert stats directly and end up with viable characters -- in 1E and 2E, there isn't much difference between an 8 and a 14, but in 3.5, there's a huge difference. With 8 con, a level 3 cleric has 10.5 HP on average. That is cripplingly poor.

Here are some examples:

Death by level 1 Warrior

With such poor HP and light armor, I'll assume you can stay out of melee, somehow, because if you get in melee, you're likely dead soon. Example: Level 1 half-orc warrior with Power Attack hits you with a greatclub. He does 5.5 base damage+3 from his 14 str+2 from power attack = 10.5 total damage. You're dead.

Death by Wand of Fireballs/AoE

Another big risk is Area of Effect spells. Don't bother with Lightning Reflexes; you need Resist Elements and Protection from Elements to soak up damage, because even passing the save you'll likely die (a 6d6 fireball does 20 damage on average; your cleric has 10.5 HP on average. Even half damage = death.).

Death by Magic Missiles

Say three magic missiles get thrown at you -- not unreasonable, either from one BBEG or 2-3 witch doctor type humanoids. You'll take 3d4+3 damage, which is 10.5 on average. You die.

Frankly, I would be frustrated with having so few HP myself. It will likely lead to quick death unless your GM takes it easy on you or your game involves very little combat. And who likes playing a character that has little long-term potential?

Steps to mitigate this VERY LOW HP weakness:

If he still doesn't let you shuffle after you politely point out the difficulties of changing systems and the short life expectacy that an 8 con dooms any character to, I'd take Craft Wondrous Item so as to be able to make an Amulet of +2 con as cheaply as possible. Divine Vigor would also be good. Improved Toughness can shore up the weakness some as well.

I'd also be dumping stat boosts into con to get it up to 10 by level 8.

Also, carry some Smokesticks and retreat behind them after sending forth summoned monkeys of doom or casting buffs for your friends. If you hide and have total concealment the bad guys can't target you with magic missile, which will also kill you rapidly.

 

[nittanytbone]

Also, all this talk of tower shields is IMPRACTICAL for this character, IMHO.

8 Str:
30 foot move = 26 lb. or less
20 foot move (med load) = 27-53 lb.
20 foot move (hvy load) = 54-80 lb.

Your morningstar weighs 6 lbs, your light crossbow weighs 6 more (with 20 bolts), and a pair of daggers (silver and cold iron) is 2 more pounds, and I'm assuming you have 10 lbs of BS (most people carry food, backpacks, treasure, etc). That's a VERY light load of misc gear, by the way.

That leaves 2 lbs of "space" left if you want to move at 30' (and you do, so you can run away), or 56 lbs of maximum carrying capacity.

A tower shield weighs 45 lbs, leaving this character with just 11 lbs for armor (padded).

The tower shield is just too heavy. Even if the character abandons everything other than his monk's outfit and a dagger, the tower shield takes up more than half of his carrying capacity. Probably unacceptable.

 

[nittanytbone]

One final idea that might help you out:

*With some spare change, hire a few men-at-arms (level 1-2 warriors) and a pair of riding dogs. Make sure to have a wall of NPC meat-bags between you and anything remotely scary AT ALL TIMES. You can't always rely on summoned critters.

*Get a heavy warhorse. They have a lot of HP and take up a lot of space. Do not ride it, however, in combat, as it will just draw attention to you.

*Outfit one of your toughest men-at-arms in plate mail. Give him a holy symbol and a morningstar. Now you wear a peasant's outfit and carry a torch. Hopefully your hired NPC will draw aggro as bad guys will think that he's the real threat, buying you at least a round or two to whip out the spells before they can react to the "torch bearer" being the cleric.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

Mmmmm, I'd steer away from Brew Potion, unless your DM is one to handwave those sorts of things.

I'm afraid I don't understand. Could you please explain this?

Your 8 CON is quite possibly crippling. Seriously, you'll be running around with the same HP as sub-par wizard, and with your 8 str, you can't carry heavy armor for decent AC either. Beg your DM to let you shuffle a 10 or 12 into there. When you change systems, you can't necessarily convert stats directly and end up with viable characters -- in 1E and 2E, there isn't much difference between an 8 and a 14, but in 3.5, there's a huge difference. With 8 con, a level 3 cleric has 10.5 HP on average. That is cripplingly poor.

Really? She was able to get to third level just fine with an 8 CON and a darkwood tower shield in 3.0... She also had a rank of Handle Animal and kept pack animals as well. And the 8 CON is not going to change, no matter what. Her HP is 15 (Max at first level might have mitigated some of this...). Thankfully, that's not changing either.

As for the amulet, even through crafting it I don't expect her to gain enough treasure to get the amulet any time soon. She is cash poor at this level.

To be honest, I'm kind of just thinking of her as a wizard/sorcerer, just with clerical magic instead.

 

[nittanytbone]

Fair enough. Two feats that might help your offense are Zen Archery (CW) and Intuitive Strike (BoED).

Zen Archery lets you use WIS to hit with Ranged Weapons. Intuitive Strike lets you use WIS to hit with Simple Weapons. With your 18 wisdom, both are very helpful.

If you go the ranged route you could do something like:

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Zen Archery
Rapid Shot

Note that you should somehow either (A) squeeze in Rapid Reload (probably instead of Precise Shot, for your light crossbow) or (B) get proficiency with longbows. The easiest way to do that is probably a level of Ruathor around level 6; its a full casting PrC with good Ref and Will saves that's easy to get into, and you get proficiency with one "elvish" weapon (such as bows). Ruathor is timed nicely, as well, as you should be getting multiple attacks part-time around level 7 (via Divine Power) and full time somewhere around level 9ish (depending on multiclassing), just in time for Rapid Shot and your longbow. You could also front load one level of Human Paragon for the skills, then a level of cleric, then complete Human Paragon. It hurts Turn Undead, but that's probably ok, and the feat/ability score boost/skills are very nice.

The melee route could be something like:

Improved Toughness
The Trait from UA that halves your speed but gives +1 HP/level
Power Attack
Intuitive Strike

Using a two handed weapon to get max benefit from Power Attack (like a spear). This is a bit contrived given low strength and con.

 

[Nail]

....This is a bit contrived given low strength and con.

Agreed.

To OP:
Your best bet is to stay out of all melee combat, period. Given that perogative, you want to keep *all* of your 30ft move, so go light on equipment and armor......as you've said, you're just a wizard casting cleric spells.

And really, that's not so bad. You've still got better saves, hp, and BAB than a wizard with those stats.

Sticking with Core Only, you'll probably want that third feat to be either a metamagic feat (extend is a good idea for this PC, given buff spells on fellow party members) or an item creation feat (like Craft Wondrous Item....but this is highly DM-dependent...will your DM give you down time? Some don't.).

What's the rest of the party like? How quickly do you gain XP and gp? These questions will help focus our discussion further.